Sydney - New M8 Tunnel weirdness

[Rockford]

Not sure if anyone else has experienced it, but was driving Westbound on this today. Being a new tunnel with speed cameras I thought it prudent to put the Cruise Control on (not Auto-Pilot).

Twice it emergency braked thinking there was a pedestrian walking across the road. The only thing I can think of is both occasions it was near the Suburb names on the wall where the vertical neons are.

I am talking hard braking with loud beeping, if the guy behind had been closer he would have went straight up my backside. It briefly flashed up a human avatar on the display outlined in red.

Could the LED 80 speed limit signs every 50M be triggering it?

 

[ICUDoc]

Could the LED 80 speed limit signs every 50M be triggering it?

Maybe, but I drive past about 15-20 of those everyday without that effect.
Maybe it's something else?

 

[paulp]

Not sure if anyone else has experienced it, but was driving Westbound on this today. Being a new tunnel with speed cameras I thought it prudent to put the Cruise Control on (not Auto-Pilot).

Twice it emergency braked thinking there was a pedestrian walking across the road. The only thing I can think of is both occasions it was near the Suburb names on the wall where the vertical neons are.

I am talking hard braking with loud beeping, if the guy behind had been closer he would have went straight up my backside. It briefly flashed up a human avatar on the display outlined in red.

Could the LED 80 speed limit signs every 50M be triggering it?

Is your radar and camera cover clean? The light might be throwing a shadow from a bug or something.

 

[Vostok]

Not sure if anyone else has experienced it, but was driving Westbound on this today. Being a new tunnel with speed cameras I thought it prudent to put the Cruise Control on (not Auto-Pilot). Twice it emergency braked thinking there was a pedestrian walking across the road. The only thing I can think of is both occasions it was near the Suburb names on the wall where the vertical neons are.

It’s reports like this that make me very wary to even use TACC, let alone Autopilot (which I have never turned on, even as an experiment). I only use it on freeways/motorways outside of the metro area. And still I get nervous if it’s a bright sunny day with high contrast shadows from overpasses. Not good enough, Tesla.

 

[Rockford]

Is your radar and camera cover clean? The light might be throwing a shadow from a bug or something.

Will check it out. Good point.

 

[GrimRe]

Not sure if anyone else has experienced it, but was driving Westbound on this today. Being a new tunnel with speed cameras I thought it prudent to put the Cruise Control on (not Auto-Pilot).

Twice it emergency braked thinking there was a pedestrian walking across the road. The only thing I can think of is both occasions it was near the Suburb names on the wall where the vertical neons are.

I am talking hard braking with loud beeping, if the guy behind had been closer he would have went straight up my backside. It briefly flashed up a human avatar on the display outlined in red.

Could the LED 80 speed limit signs every 50M be triggering it?

Do you have dash cam footage of the event? Would be intriguing to analyse what caused it.

It’s reports like this that make me very wary to even use TACC, let alone Autopilot (which I have never turned on, even as an experiment). I only use it on freeways/motorways outside of the metro area. And still I get nervous if it’s a bright sunny day with high contrast shadows from overpasses. Not good enough, Tesla.

You do realise that TACC is effectively AutoPilot without AutoSteer enabled right? If you were in TACC mode the car would still hard brake in the exact same way as if you were in full AP.

Not only that judging by the description of the event (pedestrian in path) it would have engaged AEB with or without TACC or AP being engaged.

Your fear of the system is actually more dangerous than testing it out safely to understand it better.

 

[Vostok]

You do realise that TACC is effectively AutoPilot without AutoSteer enabled right? If you were in TACC mode the car would still hard brake in the exact same way as if you were in full AP. Not only that judging by the description of the event (pedestrian in path) it would have engaged AEB with or without TACC or AP being engaged.

If it was an AEB event, surely the car would have been brought to a complete stop. Reads like it was the oft reported phantom braking from incorrect “red object” detection.

Your fear of the system is actually more dangerous than testing it out safely to understand it better.

Except TACC/EAP appears to operate “safely” right up until the moment it doesn’t.

 

[mongo]

If it was an AEB event, surely the car would have been brought to a complete stop. Reads like it was the oft reported phantom braking from incorrect “red object” detection.

AEB will only reduce the speed by 25 MPH.
From the Model 3 manual:

If driving 29 mph (46 km/h) or faster, the brakes are released after Automatic Emergency Braking has reduced your driving speed by 25 mph (40 km/h). For example, if Automatic Emergency Braking applies braking when driving 56 mph (90 km/h), it releases the brakes when your speed has been reduced to 31 mph (50 km/h).

Automatic Emergency Braking operates only when driving between approximately 7 mph (10 km/h) and 90 mph (150 km/h).

 

[paulp]

If it was an AEB event, surely the car would have been brought to a complete stop. Reads like it was the oft reported phantom braking from incorrect “red object” detection.


Except TACC/EAP appears to operate “safely” right up until the moment it doesn’t.

Agree. I’ve had multiple sudden full braking events, and a review of the footage shows absolutely no cause for it to happen. No cars, people, bikes, dogs, kangaroos anywhere. Doesnt stop me using the system, although I do enjoy it less as well as use it less knowing that a full rear end event could happen at any moment

 

[Vostok]

AEB will only reduce the speed by 25 MPH.

@Rockford - did your car slow down from 80 to 40 when your hard braking events happened?

 

[Rockford]

@Rockford - did your car slow down from 80 to 40 when your hard braking events happened?

Hard to say but would be pretty close, I was very quick on the accelerator so am not sure if that cancelled anything out. The car lurched forward and the back lifted up so it was quite a sudden slow down.

And in relation to other comments, I was in a tunnel so definitely no things running across the road. The Avatar on the screen was definitely a human shape outlined in Red, although me accelerating does that mean it has given up and said you win, you can run them over?

No Dash cam is a 2015 model.

I checked the sensors/glass in the front and couldn't see anything amiss/dirty,

I've driven easily a few thousand km's with Cruise Control engaged and never had this happen over the years. Which is why it seemed strange twice in the new tunnel. (although thinking about it there wouldn't have been many tunnels involved)

 

[paulp]

Hard to say but would be pretty close, I was very quick on the accelerator so am not sure if that cancelled anything out. The car lurched forward and the back lifted up so it was quite a sudden slow down.

And in relation to other comments, I was in a tunnel so definitely no things running across the road. The Avatar on the screen was definitely a human shape outlined in Red, although me accelerating does that mean it has given up and said you win, you can run them over?

No Dash cam is a 2015 model.

I checked the sensors/glass in the front and couldn't see anything amiss/dirty,

I've driven easily a few thousand km's with Cruise Control engaged and never had this happen over the years. Which is why it seemed strange twice in the new tunnel. (although thinking about it there wouldn't have been many tunnels involved)

Probably the ghost of the M8 tunnel. It didn’t hear you coming.

 

[GrimRe]

If it was an AEB event, surely the car would have been brought to a complete stop. Reads like it was the oft reported phantom braking from incorrect “red object” detection.


Except TACC/EAP appears to operate “safely” right up until the moment it doesn’t.

AEB only slows you down above certain speeds when it’s a stationary object. EAP isn’t a thing we have in Australia, it’s the option name for certain AutoPilot convenience features which is now deprecated.

You are only proving you point that you are fearful of something you don’t understand. AP and even the passive safety features that are basically AP without you realising it are not perfect. However neither are you. Maybe if you spent the time to learn the driver assistance features you would actually be a safer driver. Statistically right now when used correctly AutoPilot is safer than a human driver.

Hard to say but would be pretty close, I was very quick on the accelerator so am not sure if that cancelled anything out. The car lurched forward and the back lifted up so it was quite a sudden slow down.

And in relation to other comments, I was in a tunnel so definitely no things running across the road. The Avatar on the screen was definitely a human shape outlined in Red, although me accelerating does that mean it has given up and said you win, you can run them over?

No Dash cam is a 2015 model.

I checked the sensors/glass in the front and couldn't see anything amiss/dirty,

I've driven easily a few thousand km's with Cruise Control engaged and never had this happen over the years. Which is why it seemed strange twice in the new tunnel. (although thinking about it there wouldn't have been many tunnels involved)

So this is an HW1 AP car then? That basically means it’s all MobilEye. Comparing this to HW3 is chalk and cheese.

 

[Vostok]

You are only proving you point that you are fearful of something you don’t understand. AP and even the passive safety features that are basically AP without you realising it are not perfect. However neither are you. Maybe if you spent the time to learn the driver assistance features you would actually be a safer driver. Statistically right now when used correctly AutoPilot is safer than a human driver.

I’m not “fearful” (that’s really funny, I’m so scared), just prudent. I really hate it when my car brakes without reason (or speeds up or slows down jerkily) when I do use TACC. It’s extremely disconcerting and unpleasant, as well as inviting the risk of a serious rear-ender. It’s not much to ask that it doesn’t happen. So in my experience, I have a more pleasant driving experience with it off than with it on.

When the reports of phantom braking all but disappear from forums such as this then I’ll be more willing to use TACC and if TACC shows it can be relied upon then AP, because it should mean the software has eliminated most of the edge cases and false triggers.

I’m more than happy for the beta testers such as yourself to keep volunteering to make the software better, if that’s what you want to do.

 

[GrimRe]

I’m not “fearful” (that’s really funny, I’m so scared), just prudent.

Autopilot (which I have never turned on, even as an experiment)

Fear: Noun. Trepidation or painful agitation in the presence or anticipation of perceived danger.

(emphasis added)

Your action of "never turning it on" is disproportionate to the risks involved therefore you are fearful. Nothing wrong with it, its a natural emotion but at least be honest with yourself.

Also I don't think you are being very prudent at all... but I'll get to that

I really hate it when my car brakes without reason (or speeds up or slows down jerkily) when I do use TACC. It’s extremely disconcerting and unpleasant, as well as inviting the risk of a serious rear-ender. It’s not much to ask that it doesn’t happen. So in my experience, I have a more pleasant driving experience with it off than with it on.

As do I. What you need to ask yourself is what does the data show?

There is a matrix of possibilities here:

Undesirable:

1. Car brakes incorrectly and does not cause a rear-ender
2. Car brakes incorrectly and does causes a rear-ender

Desirable:

1. Car brakes correctly and does not cause a rear-ender
2. Car brakes correctly and does cause rear-ender

The only outcome in that list that is not acceptable is number 2 (i.e. what you are fearing). So what you need to do is attribute a likelihood of this occurring relative to all others. Then you need to discount this relative likelihood to the opportunity cost of losing the ability to have option 3 and 4.

If you assume there is a 10% chance of option 1 and a 5% change of option 2 occurring but and therefore 85% combined chance of 3 or 4 occurring; is it really worth losing out on that 85% chance of a desirable outcome to stop the risk of 5% probability? Some would say the most prudent thing to do is to risk a 5% probability to save an 85% probability.

Besides all of this, I would rather be rear-ended than be the one rear-ending. TACC and AutoSteer increases the probability of this being the case. AEB is another case altogether. I wouldn't give up AEB for anything as the risk of hitting pedestrians should be as close to 0% at all costs.

I guess if you aren't turning on AP at all for any reason you aren't really thinking logically anyway so it may be a moot point...

When the reports of phantom braking all but disappear from forums such as this then I’ll be more willing to use TACC and if TACC shows it can be relied upon then AP, because it should mean the software has eliminated most of the edge cases and false triggers.

This is completely anecdotal and not even related to what I assume is your Model 3. Please understand that AutoPilot is a driver assistance feature and that when used correctly is safer than you driving without it.

Model 3 does phantom break. I have experienced myself a few times (if that causes a rear-ender then the person behind you is way too close anyway) and it will probably continue to happen for some time. Its unpleasant and dangerous but net on net, AutoPilot has improved safety dramatically and that's the important point.

 

[Wol747]

>>AutoPilot has improved safety dramatically and that's the important point.<<

Says who?
You can point to the millions of miles travelled in AP mode but the real numbers to look at are the miles travelled from A to B WITHOUT any disconnection. From my own experience and from watching hundreds of YouTube videos very very few journeys are undertaken without at least one override event. If you assume overrides are only taken when there's a serious risk of an accident the numbers change dramatically.
The Tesla FanBoys' videos usually wax lyrical about the way the car behaves on AP even after taking control a few times. It may be OK for level 3 and a stretch at level 4, but 5 is a whole different ball game and I cannot see it happening with the present vehicles, if ever.
I think the OP is being very prudent.

 

[paulp]

>>AutoPilot has improved safety dramatically and that's the important point.<<

Says who?
You can point to the millions of miles travelled in AP mode but the real numbers to look at are the miles travelled from A to B WITHOUT any disconnection. From my own experience and from watching hundreds of YouTube videos very very few journeys are undertaken without at least one override event. If you assume overrides are only taken when there's a serious risk of an accident the numbers change dramatically.
The Tesla FanBoys' videos usually wax lyrical about the way the car behaves on AP even after taking control a few times. It may be OK for level 3 and a stretch at level 4, but 5 is a whole different ball game and I cannot see it happening with the present vehicles, if ever.
I think the OP is being very prudent.

I’ve never crashed my car or been in an accident. My AP has also never crashed my car. I’ve never accidently braked. My AP has done several accident full level braking. I’ve never had to have a passenger take over from my driving, and yet I regularly have to take over from my AP driving. Who is safer? Me or my car in AP?
But I will also acknowledge that the radar watching a couple of cars in front (not in AP) might be responsible for saving me from a significant crash.

 

[GrimRe]

>>AutoPilot has improved safety dramatically and that's the important point.<<

Says who?

The data.

In the 1st quarter, we registered one accident for every 4.68 million miles driven in which drivers had Autopilot engaged. For those driving without Autopilot but with our active safety features, we registered one accident for every 1.99 million miles driven.

Think about that statistic for a second. Thats 2.3x more distance between accidents on average purely because of incremental AutoPilot usage on top of the active safety features (AEB, Lane Departure etc)

That's up from 1.6x compared to the same period last year

In the 1st quarter, we registered one accident for every 2.87 million miles driven in which drivers had Autopilot engaged. For those driving without Autopilot but with our active safety features, we registered one accident for every 1.76 million miles driven.

but the real numbers to look at are the miles travelled from A to B WITHOUT any disconnection.

No it isn't. The purpose of AutoPilot is to reduce the probability of being in accident not to reduce probability of disengagements.

That being said, phantom breaking in itself will increase the probability of causing an accident so therefore it should be minimised. What nobody seems to be talking about here is that the OP was in a 2015 Model S. AutoPilot is far better now (as indicated in the above stats).

If you assume overrides are only taken when there's a serious risk of an accident the numbers change dramatically.

There's always a serious risk of an accident. Relatively speaking you are always closet to death the times you are in a vehicle.

Disengagements also aren't a corollary of an accident. For example statistically speaking how do you know that the time you turned on AutoPilot was the time it saved your life? When it works correctly you completely forget the whole experience and only the "bad" experiences survive in your memory (hence the survivor bias in personal anecdotes).

You could have had the worst ever A to B experience with AutoPilot (constant disengagements, phantom braking, etc), and it still be the time it saved your life compared to if you drove it completely manually but you can never know this without undoing entropy. Therefore the measure of disengagements is certainly important but not the one we should be focusing on as a guiding metric of AutoPilot's net impact.

It may be OK for level 3 and a stretch at level 4, but 5 is a whole different ball game and I cannot see it happening with the present vehicles, if ever.

I'm talking about AutoPilot in the context of it being a level 2 driver assistance feature. Level 5 will happen but we will meet it halfway (basically everyone will understand the limitations of the vehicle and we'll design our society around it -- much like we have with non autonomous cars just more in our favour) but that is a different topic altogether.

But I will also acknowledge that the radar watching a couple of cars in front (not in AP) might be responsible for saving me from a significant crash.

This by far is the biggest contributor to the improved distance between accidents when using AutoPilot. I've covered this before but TACC is AutoPilot just without the AutoSteer (Beta). For example TACC will stop at traffic lights (if you have the setting enabled) even with AutoSteer disabled and have the same propensity to phantom brake as when you have TACC+AutoSteer running.

 

[Amphead]

Think about that statistic for a second.

Maybe think about it for a little longer.

Thats 2.3x more distance between accidents on average purely because of incremental AutoPilot usage on top of the active safety features (AEB, Lane Departure etc)

Purely? Is an Autopilot mile the same as a non-Autopilot mile? Is there no selection bias here where drivers are favouring the use of Autopilot on the “easy” (eg. highway) miles?

This driver certainly does.

Apologies to you and Tesla if these figures have been normalized to account for that, as I’ve been surprised at how widely Tesla has spruiked this (and earlier, worse) figure... since at first glance they don’t seem especially charitable to Autopilot.

That said, I love Autopilot. One of my favourite features of the car, greatly easing effort on long highway drives. I just look forward to the day I don’t have to treat it like a far too easily distracted learner driver.

 

[GrimRe]

Maybe think about it for a little longer.



Purely? Is an Autopilot mile the same as a non-Autopilot mile? Is there no selection bias here where drivers are favouring the use of Autopilot on the “easy” (eg. highway) miles?

This driver certainly does.

Apologies to you and Tesla if these figures have been normalized to account for that, as I’ve been surprised at how widely Tesla has spruiked this (and earlier, worse) figure... since at first glance they don’t seem especially charitable to Autopilot.

That said, I love Autopilot. One of my favourite features of the car, greatly easing effort on long highway drives. I just look forward to the day I don’t have to treat it like a far too easily distracted learner driver.

I understand what you are saying and you certainly have a point. The numbers however provided by Tesla in both cases are calculated in the same way the NHTSA create their crash stats report on per mile basis so the two are comparable. The number is derived from a combined cycle similar to the fuel efficiency figures.

So therefore there is some control to the selection bias of the AutoPilot miles being an inherently safer subset of the total miles. To what degree this "normalises" the result I am not sure although its probably in Tesla's favour. Maybe discount it by 50%? That would still make the pure contribution of AutoPilot the other 75%. However your slice it, AP still purely contributes some amount, the question is just how much exactly.