Taycan Takedown

[juanmedina]

That was my mistake in July when I bought my Model 3. I trusted these reviews/opinions.

Now that I experience Tesla’s software daily, I can form my OWN opinion and given how awful the autonomous driving part is (both what the car does and what the display shows), I came to the conclusion that right now, Tesla’s SW is awful. And don’t care what a “Munro” says. That person must have another Tesla vehicle or low expectations.

I guess some people are really wowed by fart cushion, fireplace sims and video games bwahaha.

you base your comments on what? Your expert opinion.

 

[dingyibvs]

What these other mfg are failing to understand is in order to succeed you need to have a charging network.
Simply making a EV that is fast and reliable is only half the battle. The ONLY way any mfg is going to even come close
to Tesla is the pay Tesla to use and adapt their cars to accept the supercharging network. It honestly doesnt matter what the cost is which Jaguar and Porsche/GM fail to understand. No network= no sales. Jaguar can mark those I paces down to 50 grand and they still wont sell.

This reminds my of my last car. The cadillac ELR. The 75k volt. When I got mine there was a 7500 rebate plus GM had a 30k rebate off the car just to get them off the lots. Only at that point did it even come close to making sense.

I really find it hard to believe that not a single mfg has contacted Elon and Tesla to pay them to join forces as he states.

That's only in the US, which is not Porsche's largest market. Elsewhere in the world EV charging infrastructure is mushrooming at zero cost to the auto manufacturers. They're probably hoping for the same in the US if a more EV friendly administration takes over.

I mean, it's not an urgent situation for them. It's not like anybody's making money making EVs. Even Tesla, leader of the field, is hemorrhaging money. EVs are obviously the future, so they're all making these tech demonstrators to keep up, but they're probably waiting for battery/motor tech to get cheap and advanced enough before jumping full in. By then there might be a world-wide non-Tesla charging network that they can use.

 

[Octo]

you base your comments on what? Your expert opinion.

I base it on my daily experience with the actual product and I’m guided by official statements of Tesla’s CEO (Elon Musk, you trust his expert opinion, don’t you?) that e.g. “Enhanced Summon almost doesn’t suck” (=he himself implies that Tesla SW sucks).

Maybe you have a Tesla that doesn’t suck when it comes to autonomous driving assistance features or you just have no concept of quality.

 

[RonFTW]

Yes interesting but not in a good way to reflect on Porsche's technology. Why add cost and liability to a car that does not out-accelerate Tesla and has a higher top speed. We don't have the number yet but most likely it will also not reach Tesla's efficiency. It Porsche could make a $140,000+ car and there are people who are willing to buy all power to them. That does not mean it can compete with Tesla though.

Moreso about seeing if they could make that technology work (2 speed gearbox)

 

[CarlK]

Moreso about seeing if they could make that technology work (2 speed gearbox)

Work or work better? What's the point if it's not the later?t

Basically track lap time bragging rights. Tesla's horsepower drops off quite a bit at high speeds and a transmission solves that problem. I wonder how much weight it adds. It might not be much.

Do we know that for a fact? P3D already beats most non-GT 911 on tracks. That would mean Porsche will make the Taycan like those $200,000 ~$300,000 specialty cars. Very unlikely. Also don't forget not just weight and cost there is also the reliability issue. The original Roadster had a two speed transmission but it ended up that no transmission house was able to make one that could stand that much torque without breaking down. Tesla finally bypassed that by developed super high current power electronics. JB was the person behind that.

 

[IraB]

Work or work better? What's the point if it's not the later?t



Do we know that as a fact? P3D already beats most non-GT 911 on tracks. That would mean Porsche will make the Taycan like those $200,000 ~$300,000 specialty cars. Very unlikely. Also don't forget not just weight and cost there is also the reliability issue. The original Roadster had a two speed transmission but it ended up that no transmission house was able to make one that could stand that much torque without breaking down. Tesla finally bypassed that by developed super high current power electronics. JB was the person behind that.

Sorry, but where is the data to support the claim that P3D beats most non - GT 911s? Last I checked, 911 S does 1/4 faster than a P3D and at a much higher trap speed, corners almost a full 0.1 g faster and brakes considerably shorter (not surprising being 600-700 pounds lighter).

The P3D is a fine car, but it does not outperform a 911 and it should not be expected to given the difference in price and form factor.

 

[TJ73]

Do we know that for a fact? P3D already beats most non-GT 911 on tracks.

OK c'mon let's get real... a P3D piloted by Randy Pobst against my 10yr old daughter driving the 911.... absolutely.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Work or work better? What's the point if it's not the later?t



Do we know that for a fact? P3D already beats most non-GT 911 on tracks. That would mean Porsche will make the Taycan like those $200,000 ~$300,000 specialty cars. Very unlikely. Also don't forget not just weight and cost there is also the reliability issue. The original Roadster had a two speed transmission but it ended up that no transmission house was able to make one that could stand that much torque without breaking down. Tesla finally bypassed that by developed super high current power electronics. JB was the person behind that.

Laguna Seca / Stock 2017 Carrera S 1:36.44

Mountain Pass Performance did it in 1:37.5 in a modified P3D with racing slicks.
It doesn't matter, we'll know soon enough. I'm very sure the Taycan will be faster than the P3D, as it should, since it costs twice as much.
Hopefully it will inspire Tesla to make a P3D++

 

[juanmedina]

[

Laguna Seca / Stock 2017 Carrera S 1:36.44

Mountain Pass Performance did it in 1:37.5 in a modified P3D with racing slicks.
It doesn't matter, we'll know soon enough. I'm very sure the Taycan will be faster than the P3D, as it should, since it costs twice as much.
Hopefully it will inspire Tesla to make a P3D++

The Carrera S cost $140k, weight 3353lbs and has 420hp probably underrated...it better beat a modified model 3. I agree the Tycan will be faster than the model 3 performance and it should when cost almost 3 times as much.

 

[wenkan]

Laguna Seca / Stock 2017 Carrera S 1:36.44

Mountain Pass Performance did it in 1:37.5 in a modified P3D with racing slicks.
It doesn't matter, we'll know soon enough. I'm very sure the Taycan will be faster than the P3D, as it should, since it costs twice as much.
Hopefully it will inspire Tesla to make a P3D++

SpaceX roadster is the answer, it will suck the air from the bottom and blow out at any direction you want the downforce to be. The ground effect plus the thrust downforce will allow it going through any corner with full throttle. Going around any track without slowing down, it will beat every car in the world.

 

[Daniel in SD]

SpaceX roadster is the answer, it will suck the air from the bottom and blow out at any direction you want the downforce to be. The ground effect plus the thrust downforce will allow it going through any corner with full throttle. Going around any track without slowing down, it will beat every car in the world.

That’s cheating! Haha.

 

[wenkan]

That’s cheating! Haha.

Well, cheating means break some of the rules existing. For electric performance car, there is no rule, there is no restriction. Tesla can do everything physically works. No one has the power or right to accuse Tesla “cheating”.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Well, cheating means break some of the rules existing. For electric performance car, there is no rule, there is no restriction. Tesla can do everything physically works. No one has the power or right to accuse Tesla “cheating”.

It was a joke of course. Active downforce isn’t allowed in any type of racing because it’s so effective. It will be fun to see it in a production car.

 

[wenkan]

It was a joke of course. Active downforce isn’t allowed in any type of racing because it’s so effective. It will be fun to see it in a production car.

I call it “thrust aerodynamics” to differentiate from “active aerodynamics”. The later one usually means some adjustable wings/ducts which still work passively to the air flow. Creating the air flow by yourself is a totally new level, like a rocket compared to a plane.

 

[IraB]

SpaceX roadster is the answer, it will suck the air from the bottom and blow out at any direction you want the downforce to be. The ground effect plus the thrust downforce will allow it going through any corner with full throttle. Going around any track without slowing down, it will beat every car in the world.

I'm sure the new roadster will be amazing, but as many Tesla fans have already mentioned in this thread, price is a consideration. At $250K to $300K, the Tesla Roadster is another chalk and cheese comparison when discussing either the P3D or the Taycan. At that point it will be time to check in with Ferrari, Lamborghini, McLaren and a few of the other supercars.

 

[CarlK]

Sorry, but where is the data to support the claim that P3D beats most non - GT 911s? Last I checked, 911 S does 1/4 faster than a P3D and at a much higher trap speed, corners almost a full 0.1 g faster and brakes considerably shorter (not surprising being 600-700 pounds lighter).

The P3D is a fine car, but it does not outperform a 911 and it should not be expected to given the difference in price and form factor.

Unfortunately (for 911) it is the case. This MT article did not mention 911 but it did compare it to Cayman GT4 which would smoke a regular 911 on track every time.
Tesla Model 3 Performance Track Mode (Release Version): Ludicrous Handling - MotorTrend
.
JAD is a Porsche track event instructor and also P3D owner. This is his experience. Read through his comments to learn how capable P3D is on track in capable hands.
Big track review of Track Mode | Tesla

 

[Daniel in SD]

I call it “thrust aerodynamics” to differentiate from “active aerodynamics”. The later one usually means some adjustable wings/ducts which still work passively to the air flow. Creating the air flow by yourself is a totally new level, like a rocket compared to a plane.

Yeah, I'm not sure if there's a standard term for it. I swear I head it called active downforce. Anyway a team used it in a single F1 race in 1978 (which it won of course) before it was banned. Brabham BT46 - Wikipedia
Apparently Ariel is currently working on a similar design: This Ariel Atom Uses Electric Fans to Suck It Into the Ground
It all seems somewhat unsafe since if the system fails or you hit a bump in the road while turning at high speeds you're going flying!

 

[Daniel in SD]

Unfortunately (for 911) it is the case. This MT article did not mention 911 but it did compare it to Cayman GT4 which would smoke a regular 911 on track every time.
Tesla Model 3 Performance Track Mode (Release Version): Ludicrous Handling - MotorTrend
.
JAD is a Porsche track event instructor and also P3D owner. This is his experience. Read through his comments to learn how capable P3D is on track in capable hands.
Big track review of Track Mode | Tesla

That's on a relatively slow track (Street's of Willow) where the Model 3's AWD is a major advantage and the lack of gearing doesn't cost it much.
Randy Pobst's 2017 911 Carrera S time is a second faster than his 2016 Cayman GT4 time (1:36.44 vs 1:37.43).

 

[Uncle Paul]

Chaparral (sp?) had racing cars with ground effects skirts and snowmobile engine powered exhaust fans that evacuated air from underneath their cars. Tremendous down force allowed them to dominate their races until that technology was banned. Also ran with a two speed automatic and a rear wing that was adjustable from the cockpit. Also technology that was banned (also unreliable).

The comparison to the two cars is a bit rediculous as few will be cross shopping. Never saw a Tesla owner complaining that their car was unable to do 30+ consecutive 0-100 mph runs due to overheating.

Believe Porsche has simply fit larger, noise, more powerful and expensive cooling radiatiors and fans. This will provide the cooling necessary to make their claims. Problem is still that their cars will only run for short stints before running out of juice, and there are no Porsche charging stations anywhere near their tracks for owners to charge back up between runs.

 

[CarlK]

SpaceX roadster is the answer, it will suck the air from the bottom and blow out at any direction you want the downforce to be. The ground effect plus the thrust downforce will allow it going through any corner with full throttle. Going around any track without slowing down, it will beat every car in the world.

It sure will add a lot more performance on the track although it does not work the way you described. Compressor and storage tank supply compressed air to thrusters which, depends on direction pointed, will provide acceleration, decelerating and turning forces as needed. Beauty of this is this force will not rely on tire grip which is usually the limiting factor for a race car in all those situations. That's why Elon says it's almost not fair. Although it looks even the base version will be able to beat any super/hyper cars on the market.