Tesla autopilot is too strict on rules

[sleepydoc]

You are the reason why regulators are trying to apply further limitations to driver assist technology and ruining it for everyone else.

Your hand needs to be on the wheel because one day the car will mis-read the lane markings and do something stupid, and you won't be able to react in time.

It has - and I have reacted in time. If I'm in an area where I have concerns or expect it to have problems then I do put my hands on the wheel, but the limiting factor isn't my hands, it's whether I'm paying attention or not. The problems have come when people are watching movies, texting, reading books, etc. (the latest report I saw involved a Tesla hitting a squad car with it's flashing lights on - seriously? how oblivious do you have to be to miss a trooper with flashing lights?)

 

[haroldo]

You are the reason why regulators are trying to apply further limitations to driver assist technology and ruining it for everyone else.

Your hand needs to be on the wheel because one day the car will mis-read the lane markings and do something stupid, and you won't be able to react in time.

What he said!
Are we that pampered a nation that we’re complaining about holding the wheel?
150 years ago people traveled cross country by covered wagon. Most died during the trip.
Hands at 10/2, or they teach 9/3 now! If it’s a chore, let someone else drive.

 

[vanjwilson]

...
Hands at 10/2, or they teach 9/3 now! ...

I'm old enough to have gone to high school so long ago, that 9/3 was the way we were taught, before all this 10/2 nonsense. Everything old is new again.

Back on topic, I am one of the drivers who find that even holding the wheel, using TACC + Autosteer on long highways drives is so much less tiring than not using it.

I also agree that the torque sensor is finicky, so I usually just bump the volume up and down, if it doesn't detect my hands on the wheel.

De gustibus non est disputandum.

 

[haroldo]

before all this 10/2 nonsense

I always felt 10/2 gave better leverage, since it was near the top of the wheel, for quick forceful evasive turning. I recall hearing they trained police to use 9/3, I tried it, but it just felt strange.

 

[sleepydoc]

Are we that pampered a nation that we’re complaining about holding the wheel?

no, I have 2 other cars without autopilot and I hold the wheel all the time. I'm complaining about paying $10k for a feature that is annoying to use. Apparently people here think that holding the wheel is more important than paying attention. I beg to differ.

 

[haroldo]

Apparently people here think that holding the wheel is more important than paying attention

Can’t speak for others, but one is not more important than the other. They’re both equally important. Paying attention with hands of the wheel, or not in the proper position, is still risky. If it takes ½ seconds to move hands, at 70MPH that might be the difference between a safe situation and a problem.

We all know how the car works.
We all know what it needs.

The choices are to …
-comply fully
-get used to the annoying reminders
-get Tesla to change their cars
-sell the car.
Realistically, only the first two are viable options.
I don’t like the reminders, so I’ll comply

 

[sleepydoc]

Can’t speak for others, but one is not more important than the other. They’re both equally important. Paying attention with hands of the wheel, or not in the proper position, is still risky. If it takes ½ seconds to move hands, at 70MPH that might be the difference between a safe situation and a problem.

We all know how the car works.
We all know what it needs.

The choices are to …
-comply fully
-get used to the annoying reminders
-get Tesla to change their cars
-sell the car.
Realistically, only the first two are viable options.
I don’t like the reminders, so I’ll comply

I disagree. If you're paying attention it takes ¼ second at the most to grab the wheel. If you are not paying attention it takes far longer to look up, take in the surroundings, process them and decide what to do. In addition, if you are paying attention and see a potential issue you have already moved your hands to the wheel (or disengaged autopilot completely.)

We also don't really know how the car works - the programming and algorithms are changed and updated on a regular basis.

 

[FalconFour]

Dunno why it's so hard to just see the prompt bip up on screen, as it's high contrast black on white, and react to it, practically subconsciously. I'm a heavy AP user, pretty much in any scenario where it'll work, because monitoring what it does is less mind-intensive than making intense micro-adjustments to speed and steering all the time. You get in-tune with what it thinks, and you know what it's doing, when it'll do it. The nags come up when it loses confidence, or at fixed events like noticing a new lane or noticing a traffic light changes. Just react to it.

Only gets kinda annoying when I have some kind of persistent alert on the screen (like the false alarms of "12v battery needs replacement" when I've done some tinkering with the 12v system... it's a lie, but I have to get around to rebooting the whole car with a wrench to reset it). Then the alert isn't noticeable until the blue wave comes up. Other than that, I almost always catch the alert popup, because my eyes are on the road, and I can see the dark popup on the screen.

I have indeed observed magnificently insane actions on the road, but they are rather rare... so you never really expect them. Going through intersections, I pretty much ALWAYS prepare to take over. That's when the most craziness occurs. Once, it detected one of the turn-guidance markers from another lane to somehow be a dot for my lane, so it almost swerved right into adjacent traffic. Key word: almost, because I predicted it, saw it jerking the steering, grabbed & disengaged it. Other times, it might just freak out going over a crested intersection - there's a reliable freak-out intersection near my house. It's a simple "+" intersection but the "-" section is raised a bit over the "|" I'm traveling on. In even the slightest obstruction of visibility (rain, fog), it goes full alarm and disengages.

FSD Beta can't get here fast enough, because it completely rewrites how all these things are handled. I feel like we're running on 2019's Fisher-Price AP engine that's "barely good enough" while FSD Beta goes full Star Trek.

 

[haroldo]

Dunno why it's so hard to just see the prompt bip up on screen, as it's high contrast black on white,

Model 3 is blue

I miss them sometimes during the day when there’s so much light, the change isn’t noticeable. Also when I’m not focusing on the screen, but foolishly looking out the windshield gazing at traffic.

I learned to drive in the 70’s and was taught to focus on the road and only glance at screen every now and then.
Apparently, like everything else these days, modern driving inverts the process.

I wouldn’t mind a gentle beep, since the blue warning requires user to be mindful of the telescreen (deliberate Orwell reference here), which obviously takes driver attention from that pesky road ahead.

 

[FalconFour]

Also when I’m not focusing on the screen, but foolishly looking out the windshield gazing at traffic.

You know, I kinda figured someone would respond like this. I don't get it. Do you not have any peripheral vision? Like... can you physically only see/detect the objects directly where you're looking? For me, the entire nearly 180-degrees around my head pointing in all directions is detectable... not focused, not detailed, but I can at least see my hands typing while I look directly at the text on the screen.

You use that ability to see the little black bip pop up on the screen, as well as your current speed and AP status, etc, while you're focused on the road.

 

[sleepydoc]

Dunno why it's so hard to just see the prompt bip up on screen, as it's high contrast black on white, and react to it, practically subconsciously. I'm a heavy AP user, pretty much in any scenario where it'll work, because monitoring what it does is less mind-intensive than making intense micro-adjustments to speed and steering all the time. You get in-tune with what it thinks, and you know what it's doing, when it'll do it. The nags come up when it loses confidence, or at fixed events like noticing a new lane or noticing a traffic light changes. Just react to it.

Model 3 is blue

I miss them sometimes during the day when there’s so much light, the change isn’t noticeable. Also when I’m not focusing on the screen, but foolishly looking out the windshield gazing at traffic.

I learned to drive in the 70’s and was taught to focus on the road and only glance at screen every now and then.
Apparently, like everything else these days, modern driving inverts the process.

I wouldn’t mind a gentle beep, since the blue warning requires user to be mindful of the telescreen (deliberate Orwell reference here), which obviously takes driver attention from that pesky road ahead.

The model Y has small black notice at the bottom of the screen, followed by a translucent blue background that fades in and out, followed by a series of warning beeps. Usually. sometimes it will go straight to the beep and I've had times where the background barely turned blue and I got put in autopilot jail with no warning despite having my hand on the wheel. (this was on a well marked highway during the day with little to no traffic, not some strange situation where one would expect it to have difficulty.)

When I'm cruising on the highway I'm focusing on the road and if you're looking straight ahead the black notice at the bottom of screen is pretty easy to miss. Even the blue screen is not terribly obvious if you're looking ahead. This is the problem - you're almost required to have some level of distraction to keep an eye on the screen. I agree a gentle beep with the blue screen would be nice, before that blaring beep.

I also use AP quite a bit and you learn what it will have troubles with. If I'm using it in town, intersections are always questionable so I'm always prepared to take over (or simply disengage it for the intersection.)

 

[FalconFour]

Straight to the beep happens when it suddenly loses confidence in what it's doing. It's, I think, one step below "pure freakout/take over immediately" at that point.

I've sorted events into these classes:
class 1: pull the wheel now please (sees a traffic light turn green while you're stopped, etc) - pull the wheel alert appears regardless of timing since last nag
class 2: WUH. PLEASE pull the wheel now please. (lane disappears/merges, new lane appears, few other odds and ends) - pull the wheel alert appears with red hands and "boop boop"
class 3: pure freakout, WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE! You drive NOW!! (blinded by a hump ahead, AP engaged as it enters a "T" intersection with nowhere to go... or just one of the AP computers crashed/faulted) - Large "red hands on wheel" and loud alarm sounds repeatedly, car starts slowing down and wheel is released.

I disagree that AP "needs" any kind of audible warning, however I also believe that more settings/knobs should be available. A setting to provide a chime may be needed for folks that lack peripheral vision to notice the black alert popping up on the screen, or worse, not able to see the very large blue wave over the speedometer. (is there some physiological thing where some folks literally can't see in the peripheral, or ... what?)

So, I would absolutely not want it - it would drive me nuts since I can see the little black popup alert every time while watching the road. But I agree that it should be a feature that can be enabled.

 

[haroldo]

that lack peripheral vision to notice the black alert popping up on the screen,

It’s not an lack of ability. I have the ability to notice a text message on my iPhone, I have the ability to notice gps mapping, I have the ability to see incoming calls on screen. All of which require focus to be shifted from the road elsewhere, even for a split second. The tiny black warning at the bottom of the screen requires the eyes to angle down even further, for a greater distraction.
At times I notice, other times I don’t. There are times I’m very focused on road, other times, admittedly less so. We all allow ourselves a degree distraction while driving. It’s manufacturer’s responsibility to reduce the number of attractive nuisances


I’m not an engineer nor have I seen data it so can’t tell you how much time the change of visual focus takes, nor how far car travels during the distraction, but it is still a distraction. Maybe the car only travels 10 feet before driver reaction refocuses on road, maybe only five. What if that’s the safety margin?
Don’t have all the data from the incidents but I know of two friend’s kids who were in accidents with airbag deployments. They had one common denominator, both said “I looked down at my phone for a split second”

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Thankfully cell phones have Do Not Disturb While Driving, recognizing the danger of the slightest distraction.

But this inane argument boils down to the simple difference, some feel it’s okay to have (actually require) a small amount of driver distraction, others feel it would be safer to re-train drivers to pay attention to the road.
Modern car manufacturers have paradoxically made cars safer to survive an accident, but more likely to cause accidents due to the distractions needed to operate vehicle.
What is more absurd than turning on wipers from stalk, with no way to turn them off without looking down at screen, finding the wiper graphic on screen, then touch. How about single tap of button on stalk to turn on, then when wiper is on, single tap changes function and turns it off.

- it would drive me nuts since I can see the little black popup alert every time while watching the road.

The tiny black box briefly visible at the bottom of the screen is for the lawyers, so they can say “you were warned”.
When I first got my car I’d ask daughter to read the pop up, since I knew there was no way to safely read it. I’ve noticed, but never bothered to read, the occasional second line, where the font is even smaller. Smart engineering!!

But I agree that it should be a feature that can be enabled.

Now that engineering have mastered the technologically impressive fart button, Mars visualization, and Santa mode, maybe they can spend a few minutes adding an option to control panel to provide a safer environment.

Here is the programming code..

1. If Control Panel option is enabled, when blue autopilot hold wheel warning appears, make a chime sound
2. End

Distracted driving kills.

 

[FalconFour]

When I first got my car I’d ask daughter to read the pop up

It takes two, maybe three times of noticing the box then being distracted to read it, to realize that it says the same thing every single time, and no longer need to read it. Hell, every 150th time, it may even be saying "Alert: tap this notification right now to win a new Model Y", and I would literally never know it.

Because when it pops up, I don't need to look at it, I don't read it. I just see it pop up, know what it says, and react to it... without ever needing to look at it. I don't need to read the words "apply rotational force to steering wheel" -- or whatever it says because I literally don't read it every time so I haven't memorized the exact wording.

I really feel like this discussion involves one person that regularly uses Autopilot, and one person that writes at length about extended theorizing about how it might be - without really using it on a regular basis.

 

[haroldo]

one person that regularly uses Autopilot, and one person that writes at length about extended theorizing about how it might be - without really using it on a regular basis

I use autopilot all the time
There are more than one type of tiny notifications at the bottom
I usually know what it says, but more importantly, almost always know why it’s warning me.

Contrary to your assertion I’m not an idiot.

I‘m not writing for my own benefit.

I’m engaging in the discussion to help raise awareness of an issue that can be a distraction to the newer owner.
Tesla will sell millions of these cars over the next few years. Every new owner will have to deal with the confusion, and distraction, of a very poorly designed, user un-friendly system of warnings.
The car has a very steep learning curve. How many will have problems before mastering it?
Would anyone here hand their keys to a first time Tesla driver and let them drive it on their own?
it took me a couple of weeks to feel comfortable with the beeps and pop ups.

The conversation might benefit others… who knows, maybe a Tesla engineer might visit this forum.

 

[SlimJim]

It is what it is. I would rather baby sit the wheel than drive on the freeway.

 

[sleepydoc]

I agree - the black and white popup is very difficult to read but you really only need to read it once. You can still argue that even for that one time it should be more legible so it doesn’t require the driver to take his/her eyes off the road but either way you know what it is as soon as it pops up. The real problem is that it’s at the bottom of the screen, at the very edge of your peripheral vision, or possibly out of it, depending on where the seat is and where you are looking.

In general, I haven’t found the screen position in the Model Y to be an issue but this is one time when having a display in the traditional dash board location would be beneficial. There’s not a huge difference but enough of one in terms of how much you need to divert your gaze. It‘s a bit backwards if you think about it - they tell you to keep your eyes on the road at all times but then expect you to keep one eye on the screen, too.

Straight to the beep happens when it suddenly loses confidence in what it's doing. It's, I think, one step below "pure freakout/take over immediately" at that point.

I've sorted events into these classes:
class 1: pull the wheel now please (sees a traffic light turn green while you're stopped, etc) - pull the wheel alert appears regardless of timing since last nag
class 2: WUH. PLEASE pull the wheel now please. (lane disappears/merges, new lane appears, few other odds and ends) - pull the wheel alert appears with red hands and "boop boop"
class 3: pure freakout, WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE! You drive NOW!! (blinded by a hump ahead, AP engaged as it enters a "T" intersection with nowhere to go... or just one of the AP computers crashed/faulted) - Large "red hands on wheel" and loud alarm sounds repeatedly, car starts slowing down and wheel is released.

Not always - I’ve had plenty of occasions where the ’straight to the beep’ urgent warning occurs immediately after (or while) I’ve been tugging on the wheel in the absence of any situation like an intersection that would cause AP to have issues. As I’ve mentioned above, I’ve also had it go straight to timeout for no good reason. I’ve also had it turn blue and start nagging when I’m sitting at a stoplight in a line of cars. Really? Everyone’s stopped - nothing changed in the last 20 seconds!

 

[haroldo]

I’ve also had it go straight to timeout for no good reason.

Could be your speed? Currently it’s 80, but recently 75 mph will turn it off

 

[Hovscorpion1]

If you have to complain about AP beings strict, then that's a you problem. Your the reason Autopilot is the way it is. Your illegal actions have resulted in Tesla taking measures to ensure that AP is used correctly.

 

[sleepydoc]

Could be your speed? Currently it’s 80, but recently 75 mph will turn it off

Don't think so - once I had the cruise control set at 74 (in a 70 MPH zone) and the other times I was going 59 in a 55. All were on a longer trip when AP had been engaged for a while and I was just cruising on the highway with not much going on.

I just updated to 2021.24.10 and it didn't happen on my latest trip so maybe 24.10 fixed the issue?