I am not taking anything out of context.
The NET POWER test is addressed in paragraph 5.3.1. The MAXIMUM 30 MINUTES POWER test is addressed in Paragraph 5.3.2. The general description of tests (note plural in the Regulation) is included in Paragraph 5.3. The note in question is placed in Paragraph 5.3 for a reason, and that reason is that it is relevant for both tests. The note cautions that MAXIMUM 30 MINUTES POWER measured according to this Regulation can be higher than the corresponding output of the battery, i.e. the test is performed without using the battery or any electric piece of equipment that would model the battery. The reason that this note is not repeated for the NET POWER test is that if MAXIMUM 30 MINUTES POWER is higher than the battery output, the NET POWER will also be higher than battery output.
You keep saying that this evidence that they didn't have to use a battery during the test but it doesn't say this. I've told you my interpretation of it previously. We obviously don't agree.
Nor does Annex 6 define a DC power source as something other than the power source supplied with the vehicle. You also keep saying that Annex 6 provides for a power source that is not the battery. Well that's only the case if the power source of the drivetrain doesn't include a battery which is possible under different types of EV drivetrains including drivetrains that use a generator or a fuel cell as the power source. If they specifically say battery then they are limiting the configuration of the of the EV power sources to ones that use batteries rather than allowing the power source to be the one that is shipped with the vehicle.
Further more, in Annex 6, the “Method for measuring net power and the maximum 30 minutes power of electric drive trains”, 2.3.1 DOES require attaching the accessories:
Auxiliaries to be fitted During the test, the auxiliaries necessary for the drive train operation in the intended application (as listed in table 1 of this annex) shall be installed in the same position as in the vehicle.
…which are not attached to the motor shafts(see 2.3.2 for accessories to be removed). And item 4 is all
electric accessories. If the test uses an external DC power source other than what is normally supplied with the drivetrain, why does the test require electric accessories be attached? If you could pick any external DC power source you want rather than what is provided with the shipping vehicle, then it could be fixed for the test such that there would be no reason to attach the electric accessories which compete for power with the electric motor. You could just provide a DC power source with enough current capacity to make this irrelevant.
And then there's item 1 in the same table is:
Which is to be:
installed in the same position as in the vehicle.
How are you supposed to install the external DC power in the same position as in the vehicle if it isn’t the power source that is supplied with the vehicle???? It’s because it’s a battery and not an external supply(in the case of this particular EV drivetrain). To me, this statement says the dc power source has to be the one that is supplied with the vehicle installed in the same place as in the vehicle.
The second mistake in your argument is that contrary to what you are saying the NET POWER test also has time requirements associated with it. It must be preceded by a minimum of 3 minutes run at 80% of the maximum power, and then the measurements must be completed in the following 2 minutes (with a combined test duration of 5 minutes). This is covered in paragraphs 5.3.1.3 and 5.3.1.4.
I said the test didn’t have a MINIMUM time requirement.
This is specific to this one test and not related to the "net power" test which tests the maximum horsepower which does not have a minimum time requirement like the maximum 30 minutes test but must test maximum horsepower at enough engine speeds to define a power curve (5.3.1.4)
I never said the test didn’t have to be performed within a MAXIMUM time limit.
The 3 minute preparation prior to running the test which requires running at a maximum of 80% for 3 minutes is not the test of NET power. It’s a preparation requirement prior to running the test.
But you already know I know that because I’ve quoted that exact paragraph at least a half dozen times already.
The point I was making is that the net power test itself doesn’t require measuring horsepower at each RPM for a minimum amount of time.
Now let's back up for a moment and assume that you're completely right. That still doesn't get Tesla off for advertising 691 hp:
- Nowhere in ECE R85 does it say you can add the motor ratings up into one combined number and advertise that as available hp.
- The owners manual, where it states it used ECE R85, doesn't combine the performance front and rear motors together into a single number. 691 never appears anywhere in the manual.
- The owners manual lists 350KW and 193 KW for the rear and front motors which adds up to 728 hp. If they were adding up ratings , why doesn't it add up to 691 hp?
- The advertising literature and their websites which said 691 hp motor power didn't specify that they were using a European standard. You only know that from the owners manual, not from the sales literature or published specs. I've shown a photo of that page to dozens of people and asked them what they thought that meant. They *ALL* think it means the car produces 691 hp and can't understand why it would say that if it really only produced 480 to 555 hp (daily driving SOC 30% to 90%).
- If they were going to list a combined horsepower number, they had an obligation to list the power that the P85D actually makes. In addition, since the P85D is the only Model S to lose power as the SOC declines in it's normal daily driving range, they should have clarified that the 555 hp is only at 90% SOC or greater and that below that, power will decline as charge declines. This is not true on the other Model S variants until you get much deeper in to charge state.
- Ignoring repeated multiple letters and emails over MONTHS asking for clarification about the horsepower rating. We get responses for everything else we ask but those that inquired about this got nothing. If they were being so above board about this with nothing to hide, how come they refused to respond to the question of "why is my car only making 480 to 555 hp (depending on SOC) when it was advertised at 691 hp"?
- If "motor power" meant something other than horsepower at the motor, why wasn't that at least clarified in the literature? Why were we supposed to know it meant "not actual horsepower" when it wasn't defined anywhere?
I am not sure why you look so surprised to find out that, ignoring the limiting imposed by the batery, if motor shaft power of P85D is 1.5x of that for P85 at 10 mph, the same ratio would hold true at any point along the constant torque portion of the curve.
As I mentioned in my post it is just a function of the slope of this initial portion of the power vs. speed curve being proportional to the torque. The ratio of the slopes is going to be constant, i.e. equal to the ratio of the torque of P85D vs P85, which is about 1.5.
And why would we be ignoring the limits imposed by the battery??? Elon said the P85D has 50% more power than the P85. He didn’t say that the P85D has 50% more motor capacity than the P85.
In your previous post, you said this:
Essentally, the slope of the power vs speed curve in the constant torque region (up to approximately 40 mph, if I recall correctly) is proportional to the torque. So this portion of the curve (which is actually a straight line up to the point of maximum hp region) in P85D is much steeper than in P85, giving P85D a huge 0.8 second advantage in 0 to 60mph acceleration.
You weren’t talking about shaft power without the battery. You were talking about the specific performance of the P85D as compared to the P85. See, it’s in your statement.
You completely sidestepped the flaw in your argument by trying to change what you said by removing the limits imposed by the battery.
The main thing, however, is that you seem to interpret what Elon said instead of listening what he actually said. Furthermore, while interpreting some of his words and ignoring others, you seem to be oblivious to the fact that he is not talking about an ICE car (with the differences all laid out in JB Straubel's post) and he has ECE R85 definition of power in mind, which the company is clearly have been using for the P85D all along.
No interpretation is needed. He said the P85D has 50% more power than the P85. Not 50% more power at some specific speed or RPM. Like I said before, you removed the default qualifier of PEAK power and substituted “at a specific speed”. When you say car A has 50% more power than car B, one will assume, and rightly so that you mean maximum power. He's already said the P85D has 691 hp which is just about 50% more than 472 hp. When he said that, he didn't say motor power. Nor has Tesla corrected the pubs that publish 691 hp (none of which say "motor power").
So when Elon in his "D" presentation stated that P85D has 1.5x power of the P85 he was absolutely correct. Since P85D max. torque is about 50 percent higher than for P85, the power, up to the point of about 40mph **will be** 1.5x of the P85.
But again, your completely changing what you said to so you don't have to address what you previously said. The P85D maximum torque is 50% more than the P85's maximum torque. That does not mean it has 50% more power, it just means it has 50% more power at that RPM.
hp = torque * RPM / 5252
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They that think it was ok to add both engine power and write 691hp like they did before for P85D ,and says that us that did buy the P85D when Tesla had that spec on the website have no right to complain.
Would it be ok if they did add the large engine to the front and write it has 940hp? Off course still with the same battery that limit the power to max 415 kW.
Where is the limit? 150, 200 or maybe 500hp more than the car can ever make.
Because the actual horsepower the P85D makes vs what was advertised would have been caught much sooner.
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If the hp numbers are not correct when added together the total torque number for the engines should also be incorrect.
Actually, this is not the case. Peak torque comes at a much lower power level for each motor and the battery has enough power to allow both motors to output their peak torque at the same time. Peak torque comes at around 225 KW:
Although it's more complicated than that because each motor's RPM is slightly different at any vehicle speed, so the peak torque humps of each motor don't overlap exactly, but they'll be pretty close.
