Tesla DC charging network

[Larry Chanin]

Continuing from my previous post: just an idea since $50k is exactly twice $25k, that could be for a double charger like Blink's. OTOH, it could be $25k hardware + $25k installation. Or in the worst case, it could be $50k plus installation. Either way, at this point the $50k is just a number in the room.

Hi Norbert,

True, there is a lot of uncertainty regarding the cost of Tesla's "Supercharger", but if the sketchy article is to be believed then its nowhere near Nissan's ~$10,000 fast charger.

The idea of teaming up with another player is an intriguing idea, but I doubt Nissan would be the right partner for the reasons already discussed. Perhaps Toyota, who as far as I know hasn't already announced its approach to fast charging the RAV4 EV, would be a better fit.

Larry

 

[Dave EV]

I don't know that Nissan's needs and Tesla's needs overlap.

How many people are willing to drive a Nissan Leaf on a several hundred mile highway trip? You'd have to stop every 60-80 miles to charge.
I would expect a Leaf that is used hard may occasionally need a fast charge - having never left its metro area.
A J1772 trickle charge is not very useful, when limited as the Leaf is to 3.3kW, if you need a charge, you need their fast charge.
The Leaf needs fast charging infrastructure in the cities.

The Model S is a totally capable highway car, I could see driving it 500 miles in one day. The 300 mile range battery would only need one stop to do that.
That stop is likely to be on the highway between major cities.
The 300 mile range Model S is going to have a very very hard time using up its charge without leaving its home city. A 160 mile range model might, but it can charge at 10kW, so a 2 hour stop makes a significant and useful charge.

I think Nissan needs to concentrate its fast charging infrastructure in the cities, but Tesla mostly needs it in between.

I disagree - one needs to keep in mind that there is a long tail when it comes to trip lengths - as trips become longer, they also become exceedingly rare. There will certainly be some situations where charging stations will _only_ be usable by long range Model S's - but it's more likely that chargers will be most useful in urban and suburban areas.

Say you want to drive from San Diego to Palo Alto - about 500 miles. Even with the "300 mile" pack, at highway speeds you're going to need to charge every 200 miles or so at least 2 times - so stop for a bit in Santa Barbara (215 mi), San Luis Obispo (100 mi). But you'll probably want to charge a bit sooner than Santa Barbara since quick charging can't be done to 100% - charge rate has to slow down significantly to avoid overheating the pack so you'll probably want to add a stop in Los Angeles (100 mi) for a bit to pick up a partial charge. All of those locations would be in areas where Nissan LEAF owners would find them useful.

Never mind that Tesla will be selling plenty of S's with 160 mile packs - those cars will need quick charges a lot more frequently - every 115 miles or so at the least on the freeway - the 3 proposed charging stations I suggested would make a San Diego to Palo Alto trip possible for them as well. But it will also make much shorter trips - say from San Diego to Santa Barbara easily done, too.

Sure - no one in their right mind is going to take a 500 mile trip in a LEAF - but realistically if Tesla wants to make it's network usable to _all_ of it's owners, it probably needs a lot of chargers that will be useful to other EV drivers as well.

 

[Larry Chanin]

Sure - no one in their right mind is going to take a 500 mile trip in a LEAF - but realistically if Tesla wants to make it's network usable to _all_ of it's owners, it probably needs a lot of chargers that will be useful to other EV drivers as well.

Hi,

I haven't been able to find any specs on the Nissan fast charger, but somehow I doubt it will match Tesla's 90 kW. Do you really think that its likely that with such different vehicles that a compromise on specifications is something that would serve each of their respective customers. Again, wouldn't Toyota be a better fit?

Larry

 

[Dave EV]

I haven't been able to find any specs on the Nissan fast charger, but somehow I doubt it will match Tesla's 90 kW. Do you really think that its likely that with such different vehicles that a compromise on specifications is something that would serve each of their respective customers. Again, wouldn't Toyota be a better fit?

You miss the point - I initially suggested that Tesla and Nissan should work together to build cost effective charging stations that can charge both CHAdeMO equipped cars and "Supercharger" equipped cars - not that Nissan's $10k CHAdeMO charger would be directly applicable to Tesla.

Using Nissan's technology they could probably build a single charge station that can handle both cars for less than Tesla's cost but able to charge both Tesla's and CHAdeMO cars.

Nissan will sell a lot more LEAFs than Tesla will Model S's - when you're installing an expensive charging station you're going to want to make it available for as many customers as possible. Your only chance at getting any ROI on a quick charge station is to keep it as busy as possible.

 

[Larry Chanin]

You miss the point - I initially suggested that Tesla and Nissan should work together to build cost effective charging stations that can charge both CHAdeMO equipped cars and "Supercharger" equipped cars - not that Nissan's $10k CHAdeMO charger would be directly applicable to Tesla.

Using Nissan's technology they could probably build a single charge station that can handle both cars for less than Tesla's cost but able to charge both Tesla's and CHAdeMO cars.

Nissan will sell a lot more LEAFs than Tesla will Model S's - when you're installing an expensive charging station you're going to want to make it available for as many customers as possible. Your only chance at getting any ROI on a quick charge station is to keep it as busy as possible.

Hi,

I guess we're talking past one another. Nissan has a significant competitive advantage in that they have a fast charger at about $10K. To partner with Tesla would require building a much more expensive combination charger throwing that advantage away.

I like the idea of teaming up, with the appropriate partner. I figure that Toyota will sell a bunch of RAV4 EVs and Tesla already has a nice partnership with them.

Larry

 

[Dave EV]

I guess we're talking past one another. Nissan has a significant competitive advantage in that they have a fast charger at about $10K. To partner with Tesla would require building a much more expensive combination charger throwing that advantage away.

No, it wouldn't. If Tesla is going to build out their network regardless, but teaming up with Nissan lets them build a charging station that is less expensive and can charge CHAdeMO cars, too, then it's a win-win for both. Nissan gets more CHAdeMO chargers out for basically no cost and Tesla gets a charging station that hosts are more likely to install since it will be used more.

 

[TEG]

...I haven't been able to find any specs on the Nissan fast charger, but somehow I doubt it will match Tesla's 90 kW...

I think the Nissan CHAdeMO is typically called 50kW. Tesla probably needs the nearly 2x rate because their first Model S pack will be over 3x larger than a LEAF pack.
So to still call it "fast charging" (say under an hour) it needs to be more powerful.

 

[Larry Chanin]

Nissan gets more CHAdeMO chargers out for basically no cost and Tesla gets a charging station that hosts are more likely to install since it will be used more.

I think the Nissan CHAdeMO is typically called 50kW. Tesla probably needs the nearly 2x rate because their first Model S pack will be over 3x larger than a LEAF pack.
So to still call it "fast charging" (say under an hour) it needs to be more powerful.

Thanks TEG,

So what I'm trying to figure out is how does nearly doubling the size of the charger (to accommodate Tesla's needs) get Nissan more CHAdeMO chargers for basically no cost. I certainly see the advantage to Tesla, but I fail to see how Nissan would ever see such a combination charger to their advantage. If its a matter of dividing the costs, wouldn't it make more sense for Nissan to simply partner with another higher volume manufacturer, such as Mitsubishi, that will use CHAdeMO charging, rather than choosing a partner that will produce an order of magnitude less vehicles and has a propietary charger connector? Likewise wouldn't it make sense for Tesla to partner with an other manufacturer, such as Toyota, that will have an EV with a battery capacity twice that of the LEAF and closer to Tesla vehicle needs?

Larry

 

[richkae]

There are lots of trips along the west coast where you would need to put chargers in the middle of nowhere.

If you do the San Diego to Palo Alto trip up I5 there is a lot of nothing between LA and Palo Alto.
LA <-> Las Vegas: 265 miles, nothing in between
LA <-> Phoenix: 370 miles, nothing once you pass Palm Springs
SF <-> Portland OR, 650 miles, multiple 100+ mile stretches of nothing

Any route east of the I5 corridor has long stretches of nothing.

 

[Robert.Boston]

^^^which is why driving and sailing are more interesting in New England, where you're never more than an hour away from some place interesting.

 

[vfx]

^^^which is why driving and sailing are more interesting in New England, where you're never more than an hour away from some place interesting.

But how do they sound?

 

[Larry Chanin]

A National Imperative -- Building an Interstate Network of Toilets

How can a web of unclean commodes play such a pivotal role in our national infrastructure? Because we will need them when all of the gas stations are gone because we are all driving electric cars.

Larry

 

[Mark Petersen]

One other factor I believe the generally is overlocked, is how much power is there available at charging location
* tesla is 90KWh and the CHAdeMO is 50KWh
* the optimal fast charge sight will have at last two level 3 charges, and fore or more leve 2 charges
this mean that the charging site need (2x90 + 4x7)=208KWh or (2x50 + 4x7) 128KWh
how much power is there generally access to in the road +300KWh ? (remember we have to subtract the sights other power need)

so essential one tesla charger is equal to 2 CHAdeMO, leaving the operator to chose witch type to provide
but if tesla plan to provide an adaptor for CHAdeMO, most sight owners will choose CHAdeMO, as that won't exclude any cars that support level 3 charging
the next question is, if power is limited (120KWh) will tesla make a dual charger, that support two cars by lower the power to 60-60 or 90-30
also are the car able to provide the charger with information on how much power/time it will need in order to provide the second car with an estimate on when full power will be available (or online service)

 

[dpeilow]

These are all good points. Other manufacturers' chargers support this type of power routing and I hope that Tesla's do too.

 

[VolkerP]

Fast chargers have a lot of processing power built in. A little bit of that should be directed to link up with the the site's power distribution panel or the other chargers.
- "Hello, I'd like to charge a vehicle with 90kW."
- "No problem, other chargers are idle. Go ahead!"
... 10 minutes lapse...
- "Sorry to interrupt you guys, but now I have demand for another 50kW"
- "No way! I am charging a Tesla. Tell your client all we got left for him are 30kW for the next 25 minutes!"

Is there a standardized inter-charger protocol?

 

[dpeilow]

Yes Open Charge Point Protocol

 

[VolkerP]

Ah, great. I wonder if Tesla is going to ignore this standard, too with the supercharger.

 

[Larry Chanin]

the next question is, if power is limited (120KWh) will tesla make a dual charger, that support two cars by lower the power to 60-60 or 90-30

Hi Mark,

Knowing Tesla's propensity to blaze their own trail, I think it is safe to speculate that for the short term they will continue to go it alone until the standards and market trends stabilize. So I expect them to continue to follow the Harris Ranch example and install a single 90kW "Supercharger". Hopefully 90kW won't present a capacity problem to most commercial establishments.

Larry

 

[Norbert]

Knowing Tesla's propensity to blaze their own trail, I think it is safe to speculate that for the short term they will continue to go it alone until the standards and market trends stabilize.

In a sense, but one could point out that the Tesla connector does use J1772 electrically, and will allow using J1772 L2 chargers with a *very* simple mechanical-only adapter (Tom Saxton mentioned one of "half a soda can" size). It's just that standards won't stop them from coming up with a much better solution, like the mechanical design and the way to integrate DC into a single connector using the same pins (where the combo 'standards' weren't even ready, let alone actually used by anyone).

 

[Larry Chanin]

In a sense, but one could point out that the Tesla connector does use J1772 electrically, and will allow using J1772 L2 chargers with a *very* simple mechanical-only adapter (Tom Saxton mentioned one of "half a soda can" size). It's just that standards won't stop them from coming up with a much better solution, like the mechanical design and the way to integrate DC into a single connector using the same pins (where the combo 'standards' weren't even ready, let alone actually used by anyone).

Hi Norbert,

I should have been more specific. I was referring to DC fast charging standards. If Tesla discovers after its initial foray into its proprietary fast charging network that sites won't host their Superchargers because the chargers cater to a much smaller market, then Tesla may either have to change its approach or offer a combination charger with more than one type of DC connector.

As we know technologically superior designs are not always the survior in the marketplace.

Larry