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Tesla forced an update of my P85D to 2019.16.2

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Damn. I haven't charged to 90% or 100% yet to see if I'm affected (2014 P85D). I did charge to 80% and got about 200 miles, so I think that's about normal for what I was getting. I was getting 220 miles @90%, so I'll have to try that this weekend. If my 100% range drops to 211 miles, that's going to have a significant impact on my planned summer road trips.

Why is Tesla repeatedly giving the shaft to its oldest and most loyal customers? It's like they just don't care anymore, including Elon.
 
This is Elon "2014"... back when he was brilliant, innovative... yet rational. There's not a word I can disagree with in this interview. Things starting getting weird 2015-present.

Elon Musk on Tesla's Auto Pilot and Legal Liability






I don't find myself defending Elon/Tesla much these days... and I've been a very vocal v9 hater. However I do believe Tesla should have the right to force down updates for safety (e.g. bms/ap) and security (e.g. heartbleed) purposes. It would be great if they could release forked updates per OS version. It's really not that hard.
Yep, I used to tell anyone who would listen why they should buy a Tesla - greatest thing since sliced bread. Then around 2015 started prefacing it with "early adopter car, so prepare yourself for some service, but service is awesome, will fix anything while you drive a Tesla loaner". Then around 2016 started adding a warning for people about Tesla marketing (a spec can mean some part of the car is capable of it, not all of it, so it will never be met but Tesla will claim they delivered) and Elon promises ("AP1 Summon will find you anywhere on private property"), but still recommended the car, just not pre-paying anything which was not present and working on delivery day. Then 2017 I started adding "beware of over the air updates, they can break things, and your car DOES NOT always get better. After a recent service center visit, I'm now on "Warning! Warning! Danger! Danger! Crazy CEO, deteriorating production quality, parts availability, and service". I cannot in clear conscience recommend a new Tesla to anyone.
 
Damn. I haven't charged to 90% or 100% yet to see if I'm affected (2014 P85D). I did charge to 80% and got about 200 miles, so I think that's about normal for what I was getting. I was getting 220 miles @90%, so I'll have to try that this weekend. If my 100% range drops to 211 miles, that's going to have a significant impact on my planned summer road trips.

Why is Tesla repeatedly giving the shaft to its oldest and most loyal customers? It's like they just don't care anymore, including Elon.
2015 P85D, 35K miles, running 2019.16.2 here, my 90% hasn't dropped (still charges to between 222 and 225, depending on temperature, or maybe the moon). It hasn't changed in many updates (knock on wood?).
 
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Damn. I haven't charged to 90% or 100% yet to see if I'm affected (2014 P85D). I did charge to 80% and got about 200 miles, so I think that's about normal for what I was getting. I was getting 220 miles @90%, so I'll have to try that this weekend. If my 100% range drops to 211 miles, that's going to have a significant impact on my planned summer road trips.

Why is Tesla repeatedly giving the shaft to its oldest and most loyal customers? It's like they just don't care anymore, including Elon.

Tesla loves to make fun of other companies being conservative with their EV batteries but these updates may be a result of Tesla realizing there may have been something to being conservative about these things.

I mean if the recent Tesla fires are related to this update that would be a pretty serious reason to ”do something”. Of course the right thing to do would be a product recall and a hardware fix, not a Tesla-style nerfing your customers through a silent OTA.

But then this is Tesla so we get Tesla style. Like so many times before.
 
Assumedly it was the voltage drop from 4.2V to 3.9V which people speculate is to safeguard against the recent battery fire incidents.

I haven't seen any post about 3.9V. 3.9V would be approximately 40% capacity reduction, and no one is claiming anywhere near that. The number I've seen is 4.09V.

Here's a quick primer on li-ion capacity vs voltage. It's not specifically about Tesla batteries, but it should help to educate some that capacity is very non-linear. A few tenths of a volt makes a gigantic difference.

Charge voltage experiments with lithium ion batteries showing how capacity varies with charge voltage and higher cycle live with lower charge voltage
 
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I haven't seen any post about 3.9V. 3.9V would be approximately 40% capacity reduction, and no one is claiming anywhere near that. The number I've seen is 4.09V.

Here's a quick primer on li-ion capacity vs voltage. It's not specifically about Tesla batteries, but it should help to educate some that capacity is very non-linear. A few tenths of a volt makes a gigantic difference.

Charge voltage experiments with lithium ion batteries showing how capacity varies with charge voltage and higher cycle live with lower charge voltage

3.9V or 4.09V is beside the point though, I was just trying to explain where the lesser range seems to come from — a lowering of the voltage assumedly to safeguard from the recent battery fires.
 
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I think you need to do some more exploring with version 9 as its functionality is better than before imo, in the sense that there are more options, they just start at a different baseline. For example, if you press and hold the fan button, it turns the A.C./heat unit off, so in that sense, it is one touch and easier than before. There are other things are that function differently, but, once you learn the nuances of them, it isn't more difficult.

Something is wrong if you can't run 2 apps. Virtually daily I run the navigation and music apps at the same time. Maybe I don't understand what you mean by app.

I believe you can set the climate controller to have dual zones up, though I don't have it that way. Check into this functionality, because I think this is another way to change the settings to achieve what you want, it's just different as an initial setting.

I agree on the nagging A.P. However, this is lawyer driven. Tesla's been sued a few times of A.P. deaths and it least some of them are situations where the driver was asleep. They've cranked up the nag factor to avoid the cross examination that goes like this: It's true that you call it auto pilot? You let people turn it on and it appears to drive itself? It's true though that if they don't intervene at certain known problem areas, they will die? Questioning along that line is blunted with the new approach, as big a pain as it is.

Hope you get it working like you want.

Jerry



Good Lord, yes. The original HVAC controls were just fine. Not perfect (can think of some improvements), but intuitive enough and one-click-for-everything. Now you have to go through a popup (minimum of 2 presses, and can't really be done without a visual) just to turn it off. Super annoying. The 3-second-hold option is not really an option. I'm not going to take my eyes off the road for three seconds to hold my finger in place on a touch button.

After having given them some slack and using v9 in both the S and 3 since release... I really don't like the interface in either car. There are just too many things that should be simple tasks readily accessible that are stashed away behind too many button presses. I constantly find myself fumbling around with the touchscreen way more than I should be. Things are closer together and smaller, and require more presses to accomplish, leading to errors.

Unfortunately, on the Model 3, this is probably never going to be fixed, since there are virtually no physical controls and limited screen real-estate that has to be shared with instrumentation. It "works", but it's just not ideal by any means and overall I just don't like it. As for the S/X, there is plenty of screen real-estate and at least a few physical controls. There is no reason something as simple as turning off the HVAC should take more than a tap. The Model 3 UI in particular is probably just a lost cause due to the physical limitations of cramming everything needed on a single smaller screen.

Let's look at a bit of the de-evolution of Tesla's UI over the past few versions. Just facts and my own notes, from memory and glancing at the screenshots below. You may or may not care about the changes, but that's not the point. Also, mostly from an S/X standpoint.


Tesla-user-interface-software-heeader-e1538959902236.jpg

(v6,v7,v8,v9 - Credit Electrek)

  • V6.x
    • Everything you'd need during a drive is accessible with a single press in a static location
      • Camera, majority of common HVAC controls, energy, nav, media, etc
      • You know, exactly how you'd want something if you want to be able to do it without distraction.
    • Real-time power consumption meter with high accuracy available on the IC
      • This is still available to non-AP cars, actually.
    • Large energy meter in the center of the IC
      • This was great for a quick visual indication of SoC
    • Odometer always available
      • This seems like a no-brainer to me, but, whatever
    • Dual app support
      • Can have any two of the "apps" open at a time on the screen
    • Definitely a skeuomorphic interface
      • Lots of opinions there, but I think it was done pretty well overall.

  • v7.x
    • First public autopilot release
      • Public release included the first "hold the steering wheel" nags
        • However, these nags were not timed and pointless, they only happened when the system actually needed human assistance... you know, like these things should be
    • Removed original visuals from IC
      • Realtime power consumption/regen meter moved to the IC "energy" panel
        • There is no accuracy here anymore, as there aren't even ticks at reasonable intervals to estimate power usage
      • Range/energy meter reduced in size by ~90% to the size of a cell phone style battery indicator
        • Basically the fuel gauge on the car went from a reasonable size to something like 25 pixels.
      • Lost outside temp reading on the IC and CID
        • Eventually corrected on the IC side due to outrage, IIRC
    • UI in general starts it's transition to super flat
      • Not quite 8.x+ flat yet, but well on the way
    • Apps fill in the gaps gained on edges from v6.x and prior's skeuomorphic interface
      • This revealed some screen burn issues in some early cars
    • Despite a flatter more spartan UI (thus, potentially less resource intense), overall responsiveness and performance gets worse
    • Odometer not always available now
      • May not sound like much of a problem, but it's highly useful to have the odometer available at a glance for people who need to track mileage for various reasons.
    • Probably way more that I'm missing, but overall, aside from the AP related visual changes and shuffling, there wasn't a lot in terms of usability affected.
      • My biggest complaint about this version was the loss of the usable realtime power meter.
    • v7.1 introduced the first timed AP nags that were not related to confidence
    • Edit: It's worth pointing out that the transition from a skeuomorphic style interface to ultra flat is likely partially due to some screen burn issues in older cars.


  • v8.x
    • Pancake flatness achieved. Zero visual separation between controls anymore.
    • The app selection bar no longer stays on the screen when using navigation at the top of the screen
      • So now, if you have nav at the top, and want to go to another app, you have to first click somewhere at the top to make the nav bar appear (actual animation you have to wait for while nav shrinks to make room), then pick your app.
      • Workaround was to keep nav on the bottom half app, but this was not ideal.
    • Nav could now extend up to the top of the screen to get a few more pixels of real-estate at the expense of quick app changes (See above)
    • With the super flat UI (ie, no borders or anything between controls), definitely was difficult to tell active from inactive functions at times.
    • Media player was overhauled... but that's a whole different thread
      • The media player could now be a double sized app, like nav, and be mostly full screen
    • Despite going even flatter with the UI, performance continued to get worse!
      • Eventually was improved a bit in later released with an updated Linux kernel
    • Despite the visual changes, most functionality remained (aside from losses noted above and carried from other versions)
    • On the autopilot side...
      • v8 continued to add increasingly annoying nags. Timed nags were bumped in frequency, and actual punishment of the driver implemented for ignoring them.
      • Speed restrictions were added to autopilot, reducing functionality

  • v9.x
    • And here we are... there is probably too much to get into here
    • I though the UI had achieved full flatness in v8. I was wrong. Somehow they managed to surpass the previous level of flatness.
    • Loss of ability to run two apps
      • The "workarounds" for this are BS, as we're always stuck with nav now, and many things cause changes unprompted that dont automatically revert
      • Also can only have non-nav at the bottom of the screen.
    • All apps hidden behind an extra button press
      • This is even worse than v8, as it is always the case now, not just in some configurations.
    • The media player isn't even an app anymore
      • It pops up and down kind of like the other apps, but it's inconsistent and annoying
      • For example, I really just want it gone. I dont ever have the media player up all the time, yet every time I get in the car, there it is! I put it away, eventually it's back.
      • The media player is the only "app" with a dedicated button now
    • HVAC controls overhauled
      • Dual zone controls became hidden behind a slew of touches
      • Cant one-touch turn off HVAC anymore
      • Cold weather things moved around and now behind even more button presses than before
    • If it could take more button presses to accomplish, it does.
    • You can not turn off nav now
      • This is a waste, as I don't use nav when driving locally
    • All other "apps" open at the bottom of the screen now.
      • May seem minor, but definitely a loss
    • Can not keep the camera or other non-music non-nav app up all the time
      • This is a pretty huge one, as being able to keep the rear camera on all the time at the top of the screen is a great feature that's now lost
    • A ton of information and interface was dropped to the bottom of the screen, forcing more than just a glance to deal with
    • This list is not exhaustive... there are tons more changes, and I don't really know of any v9 UI changes that were an actual improvement
    • On the AP side...
      • Timed nags are completely out of hand. As often as every 5 seconds you're demanded to "Apply light force", depending on speed, road type, etc. Never more than 20 seconds between nags, though.
      • Worse speed restrictions
        • Even more broken on newer cars, since they rely on poor map data for speed (AP2+) instead of visually reading the signs (AP1).
      • Punitive crap from v8 continues, forcing you to pull over and park the car before being allowed to use features of your own damn car.

I think it's pretty obvious that Tesla's UI is not being designed by people with actual experience in human/machine interface design. In summary, v6 was pretty decent. v7 was alright. v8 was getting pretty bad. v9 is just holy crap wtf were you thinking. (Note: the first Tesla I bought had v4.x)

I really hope they get their sh*t together and overhaul this disaster for v10. The continuous, blatantly obvious, and objectively true loss of functionality version over version is ridiculous, especially when they say things will improve over time with OTAs.

Suffice it to say, Tesla's complete disregard for this sort of stuff hits a nerve with me. It's highly frustrating and could be completely avoided. As someone who has purchased quite a few of their products, and wants the company to succeed, I fear that they're just going to be knocked out of the water when one of the existing OEMs decides to actually do so... and that's pretty sad, really.
 
Something is wrong if you can't run 2 apps. Virtually daily I run the navigation and music apps at the same time. Maybe I don't understand what you mean by app.

From what I've seen, you can't run just any two apps, and you're forced to have nav on the top half of the screen. You can run nav along with any other app, as long as the other app in on the bottom. Which doesn't allow me to use the display the way I have been using it since 2013: camera on top, nav on the bottom.

They later added what I consider an absurd hack to allow the camera on top, again, by making the camera an extension of the media player! So the camera can be on top, just as long as you want the media player on the bottom!
 
Something is wrong if you can't run 2 apps. Virtually daily I run the navigation and music apps at the same time. Maybe I don't understand what you mean by app.

Try running the energy consumption graph with the backup camera, or the browser and the backup camera, or just turn off Nav entirely and run something else. You are not forced to run Nav 100% of the time in the background (what a waste of resources), plus media player ALWAYS, plus ONE other app. V8 and before you could select ANY two apps of your choice. Now you can't.
 
3.9V or 4.09V is beside the point though, I was just trying to explain where the lesser range seems to come from — a lowering of the voltage assumedly to safeguard from the recent battery fires.

FWIW @TJtv and @MP3Mike, they are saying this in the other thread:

People most affected are posting 63 kwh as the new capacity and the new 3.9v maximum is the old 80% charge voltage, so one could point to their monroney sticker to argue tesla took almost the full $10k 85 package away.

But again the exact voltage figures were not my point, but since you feel it important just posting this quote.
 
I think you need to do some more exploring with version 9 as its functionality is better than before imo, in the sense that there are more options, they just start at a different baseline. For example, if you press and hold the fan button, it turns the A.C./heat unit off, so in that sense, it is one touch and easier than before.

While it’s true that holding the fan button icon in ver 9 will turn OFF the HVAC, it is a pain to have to hold the icon for several seconds, whereas before (in ver 8.1) a quick tap would turn OFF the HVAC. However, what annoys me more is that when I hold the fan button icon I also inadvertently touch the driver’s seat heater icon, which turns ON to the low setting (I think it toggles from high to low as the seat heater icon is held). Since I always turn OFF the HVAC whenever I exit the car, I now have to always turn OFF the driver’s seat warmer when I get back in the car. This was not an issue with ver 8.1.
 
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Try running the energy consumption graph with the backup camera, or the browser and the backup camera, or just turn off Nav entirely and run something else. You are not forced to run Nav 100% of the time in the background (what a waste of resources), plus media player ALWAYS, plus ONE other app. V8 and before you could select ANY two apps of your choice. Now you can't.
v8 you could also select a single app for the entire screen too (and with no animated nav frame around it / in the background, which just slows down the MCU).