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Tesla legal claims MCU is a wearable part, like tires

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I guarantee Tesla would be quick to fix it without a stink.

I would think they would fight even harder than this one. How many 3's would need the fix? Much higher number. I am not concerned about it however.

Also when has any automaker been quick to fix anything or accept responsibility early on? Maybe on one or two minor issues, but when the $ start adding up they go kicking and screaming.
 
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I would think they would fight even harder than this one. How many 3's would need the fix? Much higher number. I am not concerned about it however.

Also when has any automaker been quick to fix anything or accept responsibility early on? Maybe on one or two minor issues, but when the $ start adding up they go kicking and screaming.

There are so many 3s and Ys the negative pressure and press would not be worth it. S and X MCU1 are such a minority it doesnt matter. If this happened to 3 or Y it would have a huge affect on the stock
 
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I would think they would fight even harder than this one. How many 3's would need the fix? Much higher number. I am not concerned about it however.

Also when has any automaker been quick to fix anything or accept responsibility early on? Maybe on one or two minor issues, but when the $ start adding up they go kicking and screaming.

None. They resolved the issue in 2018 with MCU2 with a much larger chip and also less logging. 3’s and Y’s use the larger chip as well.
 
None. They resolved the issue in 2018 with MCU2 with a much larger chip and also less logging. 3’s and Y’s use the larger chip as well.

I understand that. That is why I said I was not worried. I was responding to a hypothetical posed by @viper2ko.

From experience the idea of getting ahead recalls and such begins at design and manufacture. Everything past that point is mitigation of problems created in the first two. Tesla thus far has not shown any different colors than other OEM's. Tell customer they are wrong, sometimes tell engineering they are wrong, come up with a face saving measure, then tell NHTSA wrong, and then lose or run away with tail between legs.

My thought is that Tesla will be like all OEM's as they mature and have higher volumes. One could even say they could be worse with the current service model should it continue encounter issues as these.
 
It's an interesting argument, and one I'd consider technically correct. eMMCs indeed have finite lifespans and published expected write cycles / MTBF. They don't last forever and nobody should be surprised by that.

The actual argument here is whether or not it's reasonable/responsible for Tesla to spec a "wear item" like this that has no chance of lasting even a fraction of the usable service life of the car. I think the answer to that is no, it's clearly not reasonable. NHTSA would probably also have a problem with manufacturers installing "starter" brake pads on cars that only lasted 5k miles.

I was also intrigued by this argument. At first I rolled my eyes but the more I think about it, there is a new world to consider as things move to electronic controls. It's not like clutches are warranty items - they wear out, and some wear faster depending on drive style, just as they argue in their response. I think generally manufacturers do explicitly list some, but not all, such items in their warranty disclaimers.

I pulled up a BMW warranty manual for reference, and they include this statement, which I think is similar to others I've seen:

Items which are subject to wear and tear or deterioration due to driving habits or conditions, such as brake pads/linings, brake discs, clutch disc, pressure plate, filters, upholstery, trim and chrome items, paint finish, drive belts, glass, and similar items, their coverage is specifically limited to defects in material or workmanship.​

Emphasis mine. I do believe they likely had poorly optimized code when it comes to logging (this kind of MMC wear issue can bite many embedded device manufacturer), but I'd have a tough time arguing that it's a defect per se. Everything operated as designed, even if that design didn't have the longevity people wanted.

My biggest beef is really with the expense of the repair and the time it took them to bring it down, and of course their usual lack of transparency. But their argument holds water with me.
 
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My dad was left stranded when I was a kid because his Ford Escort (well, Mercury Tracer) timing belt broke at 60,500 miles on a 60k interval.

The Tracer wasn’t an Escort, it was a Mazda 323. Mine was the most reliable car I’ve ever owned. Over 105,000 miles on original clutch, water pump, etc. To be fair though, the guy I sold it to blew it up with a bad water pump a few thousand miles later. When it was rebuilt, the original clutch still had 90% life left.
 
Welcome to Tesla. Just like they claimed with a straight face that it was absolutely true to advertise the P85D with 691hp, then couple of years later admit that the battery limits the power to 463hp, they will make a straight face claim here that their vehicle lasts longer than ICE vehicles, just not the MCU. Heck, the statement they just made pretty much says the MCU is like tires, you have to change it out periodically, and obviously they didn't claim tires last longer on a Tesla than ICE vehicles. They are very creative when it comes to weaseling out of their claims after they got your money and are no longer shipping the old product in new cars. I'm sure they will not admit that MCU3 is a consumable until MCU4 comes out.
Yea, but I can get tires at any Goodyear, Firestone, Bridgestone, etc dealer.....
 
can definitely tell you the service/buying experience for Audi’s and Porsches make you feel valued. While With Tesla you’re just a number to them. Also servicing at Tesla you get treated like you bought a 25k car not a 100k+ car. Oh an Porsche charging X $ for contrast stitching at least they allow more than 5 exterior colours on their cars..
Customer experiences vary for all brands. I have had very bad experiences on Porsche 996, BMW M3, BMW 535 and good ones too on other models. With Tesla my P85D had wonderful service, and it did need a little bit, nothing major. My P3D had collision repair, horrible, but precisely zero other issues.

We are being pretty selective and hard on Tesla. That is understandable, I suppose, since we want the service to perfectly match the wonderful cars. It does not.

There is not much point in matching anecdotes; there is not statistical rigor in swapping stories. Tesla vehicles do fail far less frequently than do typical cars, but they do get complaints about unfriendly controls. That makes JD Power and Consumers report report faults. They aren't faults but are not comfortable for non-geeky customers. so...

As technological comfort rises so too does satisfaction with Tesla. As technological comfort declines so too does customer satisfaction. After all, operating a Tesla is fine if you're addicted to your smartphone. If not, you won't know how to do much of anything.

When things go wrong, screens, control units, anything else, usually the culprit is some technological update issue or unusual control. Those are huge issues to the uninformed.
As for recalls vs charging people for updated chips, probably everyone really thinks those ought to be covered by Tesla. After all they knew about a red/write limitation that very very few of us knew. At worst they should have made replacement easy...and so it goes. We are owning technological marvels, we expect service to be rare and cheap or free when it is needed.

Once the immediate issue has been resolved there will be others. That is what happens when we are facing the future.
 
20 years ago a Honda Civic, a cheap to own car, was designed needing a $500-$1000 timing belt/water pump job every 60k miles.

I had that Honda Civic,1986, that I sold in 2000. I replaced the timing belt and water pump (myself) at 110,000 miles (not doing that again...), just because it was getting time. I replaced many of the plastic wear items simply because they were worn, and of course the usual parts replaced here and there under the hood. Beyond that, it started every time. Still had the same clutch when I sold it.
 
If “feeling valued” for spending money is your primary objective, I totally agree that a Tesla is not for you.

My data point on this is different. When I got my p85d is 2015 I felt quite valued. I do lament the loss of the valet pickup and drop off service, and wish it were available at a price, but other than that my service remains great.

Considering I don't do oil changes, I spend less time dealing with car maintenance compared to prior Lexus and Toyota cars. The mobile service techs have been great too.

I think we just mostly hear about problems because tesla buyers are more social media connected and more likely to express their problems than the avg buyer of other cars.

Separate from service is the need for post factory fixes especially during the ramp up phase. I hope they implement lessons learned as they ramp up new lines to yield better initial quality.
 
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Yes, Tesla will definitely be forced to up their game to compete in an industry of competitors so fiercely known for providing stellar customer service!

lol, give me a break. You obviously come from the Porsche world where reality is distorted by the sort of “customer service” that only $3500 “contrast stitching” and “carbon fiber volume knob” options can finance… but you’re in full fantasy land if you think the rest of the industry has this figured out and Tesla is the egregious outlier just waiting to be steamrolled by Ford’s stellar quality control and customer service organization.

Agree re: Porsche (and other "great" reputation companies such as BMW & Mercedes)....my wife had a Macan that was chock full of problems for the 3 years we owned it......two recalls, both of which took over a year to get repaired.
 
You know, lawyers make arguments. That is what they do.

I get plenty mad at Tesla for various things but getting mad about some argument a lawyer made is not worth it.

The end point of the eMMC debacle is actually pretty reasonable. The discounted MCU2 is pretty reasonable.

I remember when I was buying my car, the cost of a replacement computer was high on my list of concerns. Sure, I didn't know anything about read/write cycles and an eMMC chip. But to be fair, day one, an 8gb chip probably seemed ok.

I have a 2015 with occ reboot issues. 90k miles. I guess I have been fairly lucky. But the last time I got mad at Tesla is when they wouldn't take my $500 to get a new daughterboard (6 months ago). So I am less mad today.... (probably will just go MCU2).

As far as longevity of the car and cost of ownership, the end result is probably better than average legacy auto man.

fyi....I had the daughterboard on my original X replaced in December by Raleigh service center.
 
I do believe they likely had poorly optimized code when it comes to logging (this kind of MMC wear issue can bite many embedded device manufacturer), but I'd have a tough time arguing that it's a defect per se. Everything operated as designed, even if that design didn't have the longevity people wanted.
Once you have an army of Raspberry Pi mini computers running on SD cards, or have had a dash cam for a while, and they clunk out after a few months/years, you go "oh right, these things have limited write actions".

Now memory card makers have multiple endurance memory card models in their lineup, but ~5 years ago this was not something anything was worried about.

Biggest handicap Tesla had was that the memory chip was not easily field replaceable, and they didn't have a plan for when it actually happened.
 
It's an interesting argument, and one I'd consider technically correct. eMMCs indeed have finite lifespans and published expected write cycles / MTBF. They don't last forever and nobody should be surprised by that.

The actual argument here is whether or not it's reasonable/responsible for Tesla to spec a "wear item" like this that has no chance of lasting even a fraction of the usable service life of the car. I think the answer to that is no, it's clearly not reasonable. NHTSA would probably also have a problem with manufacturers installing "starter" brake pads on cars that only lasted 5k miles.


If its a wear item why do you tie it into a $2000+ computer? Why not make it a replaceable $10 memory chip like on EVERY SINGLE COMPUTER IN THE F_ING WORLD??

SEriously, that is the worst "dog ate my homework" excuse i have ever heard. They either a) Had no clue this would happen or B) planned it meticulously so that it would fail juuuuuust out of warranty
 
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Had Tesla just not log so much worthless information so long, the eMMC probably would have lasted much longer.

The lawyer argument about it needing to last only 5 years is ridiculous.

The good news is that this is practically resolved now....finally. Unfortunately Tesla took too long to get to this point and didn’t do it on their own merit. Not a good look.

that "worthless information" is at least HALF the total value of tesla as a company, they clearly have the largest repository of self driving and non self driving l world data (not some fleet of 100 waymo crapmobiles puttering around mt view). These units FAILED BY DESIGN for the sake of data gathering at the customers expense
 
If its a wear item why do you tie it into a $2000+ computer? Why not make it a replaceable $10 memory chip like on EVERY SINGLE COMPUTER IN THE F_ING WORLD??

SEriously, that is the worst "dog ate my homework" excuse i have ever heard. They either a) Had no clue this would happen or B) planned it meticulously so that it would fail juuuuuust out of warranty

They had no clue. Why are timing belts not replaceable by pulling off a plastic cover and using a philips head screwdriver? Not everything is so convenient in analog or digital worlds.
 
that "worthless information" is at least HALF the total value of tesla as a company, they clearly have the largest repository of self driving and non self driving l world data (not some fleet of 100 waymo crapmobiles puttering around mt view). These units FAILED BY DESIGN for the sake of data gathering at the customers expense

No. The logging is the OS level logging that they needlessly did. I’m not talking about AP logging, etc.

MCU died out of warranty. Heres info on my experience
 
Customer experiences vary for all brands. I have had very bad experiences on Porsche 996, BMW M3, BMW 535 and good ones too on other models. With Tesla my P85D had wonderful service, and it did need a little bit, nothing major. My P3D had collision repair, horrible, but precisely zero other issues.

We are being pretty selective and hard on Tesla. That is understandable, I suppose, since we want the service to perfectly match the wonderful cars. It does not.

There is not much point in matching anecdotes; there is not statistical rigor in swapping stories. Tesla vehicles do fail far less frequently than do typical cars, but they do get complaints about unfriendly controls. That makes JD Power and Consumers report report faults. They aren't faults but are not comfortable for non-geeky customers. so...

As technological comfort rises so too does satisfaction with Tesla. As technological comfort declines so too does customer satisfaction. After all, operating a Tesla is fine if you're addicted to your smartphone. If not, you won't know how to do much of anything.

When things go wrong, screens, control units, anything else, usually the culprit is some technological update issue or unusual control. Those are huge issues to the uninformed.
As for recalls vs charging people for updated chips, probably everyone really thinks those ought to be covered by Tesla. After all they knew about a red/write limitation that very very few of us knew. At worst they should have made replacement easy...and so it goes. We are owning technological marvels, we expect service to be rare and cheap or free when it is needed.

Once the immediate issue has been resolved there will be others. That is what happens when we are facing the future.

Fair enough to say everyone has different experiences but you definitely read about tesla issues the most.

I wouldn't go as far to say Tesla's are less likely to fail, my 2014 P85 was constantly getting repaired and now my 2021 LR+ front motor needs its half shafts replaced because of a grinding issue from 7km on the odometer. Let alone it needing trunk and door handle adjustment cause both werent opening.

In the way of customer service I do come down hard on Tesla, but they also do a lot of other things really well too. Cannot remember the last time an automaker allowed you to upgrade the internal computer to get newer features etc. legacy makers would tell you to just buy the newer car. Same goes for the pricey FSD upgrade - its at least an option.

Alas, I knew all this going into purchasing the car, and honestly if it bothered me that much I wouldnt have purchased another S, but I did. So don't get me wrong I am not dogging on Tesla just being brutally honest when barbaric claims are made! :)
 
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In the way of customer service I do come down hard on Tesla, but they also do a lot of other things really well too. Cannot remember the last time an automaker allowed you to upgrade the internal computer to get newer features etc. legacy makers would tell you to just buy the newer car.
It's a very dangerous game, because I upgraded my 2017 Model X with the MCU2 and got the AP3 hardware, and I have absolutely no reason to upgrade to a new Model X or anything else, even after 148000km.

That's income Tesla isn't getting, just because I could upgrade my car for a reasonable amount of money, and it still looks and runs as new.