Tesla making HUGE mistake with Superchargers

[bradtem]

Okay so maybe like a trickle, but its going to happen.

well, it could be a flood IF Tesla makes adapters and places several of them at each SC. Short of that, no. I have not heard any talk of Tesla doing that. One reason they are going to do this is they can get grants and tax credits for installing "standard" stations, but that's most interesting to them for new stations as the cost of the adapters is low, but getting 30% or 60% of the cost of a new station is a big deal.

 

[Mockingbird]

This whole thing really comes down to the fact that they need to lose money before they can make money. They need to demonstrate that their reliable before people really trust them to support road trips.

There is already a feeling among non-Tesla EV owners that the flood gates will open with Tesla opening up their network. That feeling is there because people trust the Tesla Supercharger network. Sure they might have concerns about how busy it is, but they plug in its very likely to work. Versus the EA game where you have to check before traveling there, and then look for any LCD that's off (those don't work). If the screen is on then plug, pay and prey.

On the other side you have Tesla owners who want a CCS adapter so they can charge at EA (or non-Tesla CCS L3 chargers) if either location or availability is better.

I think your calculations next year (at least for the West Coast) will show something dramatically different given the sales of Ford EV's,. Hyundai EV's, Rivian and others. A lot of those options didn't exist last year.

On the contrary, I doubt that opening Supercharger to non-Tesla would make much difference to most non-Tesla drivers.

Journalists will say that it's the most important thing since the invention of slice break and non-Tesla drivers will flock over to try the Supercharger for a month or two, but then they will return to normal.

The biggest difference will be for non-Tesla drivers in states like West Virginia where CCS infrastructure is currently close to non-existence.

 

[SCTes1aMan]

For the first time in the two years of watching my local SC it was full when I arrived. It quickly had my thinking about what it will be like having other EVs there as well. Within minutes it happened. This was the SC in Myrtle Beach, SC and I'm not sure why this guy thought it would work for his IONIQ 5 but he hooked it up and got into his car for 3-4 minutes and then gave up.

BTW, he really fought with that adapter while trying to unhook it.

 

[bradtem]

For the first time in the two years of watching my local SC it was full when I arrived. It quickly had my thinking about what it will be like having other EVs there as well. Within minutes it happened. This was the SC in Myrtle Beach, SC and I'm not sure why this guy thought it would work for his IONIQ 5 but he hooked it up and got into his car for 3-4 minutes and then gave up.

BTW, he really fought with that adapter while trying to unhook it.

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He's got one of those Tesla to J1772 converters which let him use Tesla destination chargers, but of course it doesn't do anything for a supercharger, and even if it did he would need a car that talked the Tesla protocol and authenticated with a Tesla account.

However, it remains possible that Tesla will make a SC to CCS adapter, though the drivers will need the Tesla app on their phones and have to authenticate with that. If they put CCS cables on the SCs, they will still need the app to authenticate though it is possible that if they have a car that supports plug to charge, and Tesla supports that in SC, they can get an almost identical experience. It is even possible some CCS EV makers might negotiate a way to support the Tesla data protocol in addition to or instead of plug to charge, to give the same experience. After all, doing so would be a nice selling point for the car.

 

[SCTes1aMan]

He's got one of those Tesla to J1772 converters which let him use Tesla destination chargers, but of course it doesn't do anything for a supercharger, and even if it did he would need a car that talked the Tesla protocol and authenticated with a Tesla account.

However, it remains possible that Tesla will make a SC to CCS adapter, though the drivers will need the Tesla app on their phones and have to authenticate with that. If they put CCS cables on the SCs, they will still need the app to authenticate though it is possible that if they have a car that supports plug to charge, and Tesla supports that in SC, they can get an almost identical experience. It is even possible some CCS EV makers might negotiate a way to support the Tesla data protocol in addition to or instead of plug to charge, to give the same experience. After all, doing so would be a nice selling point for the car.

I keep up on all of that but I was surprised that he thought it would work on the SC. He's likely heard all of the talk about it coming and wanted to test it for himself. Personally I would hate having to lug that adapter around but I'm sure most wouldn't mind if that actually gave them access today. I'm curious to see Tesla's approach with the new stations.

 

[roblab]

Take that advantage away, and create supercharging situations like those that exist in California, with wait times common, and you take away the one great advantage that Tesla has in the competition.

All my opinion, of course. Backed only by numerous conversations with other Tesla owners near me. Larger business empires have fallen on much smaller mis-steps.

And my opinion might be different. Driving an S, my supercharging is free (or included in the price) and I have only ONCE had to wait for a supercharger, for all of 3 minutes. There are very few places where Tesla owners have to wait to supercharge, at least where I live, and evidently not where my daughter went this weekend in her X, down to Ventura. There are two large supercharging sites near me, both with twenty or so chargers, and usually there are only a half dozen cars charging at either place.

You've never had any conversation with me, and I feel your statistics are skewed, no matter how many "numerous conversations" you've had. If I only talked to owners who used Kettleman City chargers between 10 AM and 2PM, I might get the impression that charging was crowded. But I don't, and it isn't.

 

[Mockingbird]

However, it remains possible that Tesla will make a SC to CCS adapter, though the drivers will need the Tesla app on their phones and have to authenticate with that. If they put CCS cables on the SCs, they will still need the app to authenticate though it is possible that if they have a car that supports plug to charge, and Tesla supports that in SC, they can get an almost identical experience. It is even possible some CCS EV makers might negotiate a way to support the Tesla data protocol in addition to or instead of plug to charge, to give the same experience. After all, doing so would be a nice selling point for the car.

Tesla already switched to CCS elsewhere, so we know how Tesla is going to do it.

Existing Superchargers will be retrofitted with CCS.

There will be a period where CCS and TPC co-exist before TPC is phased out and future Superchargers (and future Tesla vehicles) be CCS only.

 

[bradtem]

Tesla already switched to CCS elsewhere, so we know how Tesla is going to do it.

Existing Superchargers will be retrofitted with CCS.

There will be a period where CCS and TPC co-exist before TPC is phased out and future Superchargers (and future Tesla vehicles) be CCS only.

Yes, everybody knows they use CCS in Europe.
However, you state that existing SC are being retrofitted to CCS. Can you point to the announcement from Tesla that makes you say that with such certainty? I've seen statements about Tesla chargers with CCS cords and also statements about adapters. If you have a definite source, or other such information, please share it. Ditto about Tesla changing cars to have CCS1 connectors -- much discussion, but please point us to the official source that you are basing this claim on.

Most of the press came from Tesla applying to build stations in Texas with CCS (and CHAdeMO) in order to get grants. They did not get the grants so that's no longer correct.

 

[MP3Mike]

TPC is phased out and future Superchargers (and future Tesla vehicles) be CCS only.

I highly doubt that will happen.

 

[Mockingbird]

Yes, everybody knows they use CCS in Europe.
However, you state that existing SC are being retrofitted to CCS. Can you point to the announcement from Tesla that makes you say that with such certainty? I've seen statements about Tesla chargers with CCS cords and also statements about adapters. If you have a definite source, or other such information, please share it. Ditto about Tesla changing cars to have CCS1 connectors -- much discussion, but please point us to the official source that you are basing this claim on.

Most of the press came from Tesla applying to build stations in Texas with CCS (and CHAdeMO) in order to get grants. They did not get the grants so that's no longer correct.

Tesla didn't always use CCS in Europe.

Tesla switched to CCS in Europe.

 

[Mockingbird]

I highly doubt that will happen.

It wouldn't exactly be the first time Tesla switches to CCS.

I am not saying that it will happen right away: it takes time to retrofit existing Superchargers with CCS

 

[MP3Mike]

Tesla didn't always use CCS in Europe.

Tesla switched to CCS in Europe.

But they always used a standard connector in Europe. (Which happens to be the top half of CCS there.) Not so in North America.

I am not saying that it will happen right away: it takes time to retrofit existing Superchargers with CCS

The difference is that switching in Europe didn't require switching home and destination chargers as well. (Or yet more adapters.)

 

[Mockingbird]

But they always used a standard connector in Europe. (Which happens to be the top half of CCS there.) Not so in North America.

Type 2 isn't a standard connector in Europe for fast charging.

The difference is that switching in Europe didn't require switching home and destination chargers as well. (Or yet more adapters.)

Switching in the US doesn't require switching home and destination chargers either.

Tesla has included the J-1772 to TPC adapter for years. Now, Tesla can just include the reverse adapter.

 

[MP3Mike]

Type 2 isn't a standard connector in Europe for fast charging.

I never said it was. But it actually is, mid-DC fast charging is in the standard for the type 2 connector.

Tesla has included the J-1772 to TPC adapter for years. Now, Tesla can just include the reverse adapter.

Interesting how you keep saying the same thing I said as if it was new information...

 

[bradtem]

Tesla didn't always use CCS in Europe.

Tesla switched to CCS in Europe.

Again, everybody knows that. But then to confirm, you were just stating your opinion on what would happen, I presume? You wrote it as though you knew it and had some source for it.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

On the contrary, I doubt that opening Supercharger to non-Tesla would make much difference to most non-Tesla drivers.

Journalists will say that it's the most important thing since the invention of slice break and non-Tesla drivers will flock over to try the Supercharger for a month or two, but then they will return to normal.

The biggest difference will be for non-Tesla drivers in states like West Virginia where CCS infrastructure is currently close to non-existence.

Yes, West Virginia made us take our PHEV instead of our BEV.

But it's not just about non-existence, there's also speed and capacity. We went to PEI this summer using single 50kW chargers. Would have been faster and with fewer stops if I could have used the Superchargers in Baileyville, ME, Quispamsis, NB and Charlottetown, PE. Also could have been a bit faster if the 2 Petro Canada CCS weren't both broken.

The density was pretty good, with the chargers less than 50 miles apart, and they proved reliable, but I stopped with higher SoC to hedge the charger not working or being occupied. I was lucky on the way there (although 2 cars ended up waiting for me), but forgot to check ahead when charging at Lepreau, NB on the way back, and another car was using the charger in St Stephen, NB, and charging to 100% (maybe because of the dearth of charging in North and Eastern Maine), so I used the destination charger until they were full and it showed their car had stopped charging.

Tesla didn't always use CCS in Europe.

Tesla switched to CCS in Europe.

Tesla was forced by law to switch in Europe and it was a _way_ easier switch than it would be in North America because their European AC charging uses Type 2.

 

[Mockingbird]

Yes, West Virginia made us take

Tesla was forced by law to switch in Europe and it was a _way_ easier switch than it would be in North America because their European AC charging uses Type 2.

...and Tesla wants money from the US government which requires that the Supercharger have CCS

Also, Tesla to J-1772 adapter already exists and is plentiful on the market.

 

[bradtem]

...and Tesla wants money from the US government which requires that the Supercharger have CCS

Also, Tesla to J-1772 adapter already exists and is plentiful on the market.

So again, you are just making arguments (we have seen these arguments many times here, so we're mostly interested in new information.

The grants for stations to have CCS primarily would be used on new stations, unless they will provide significant money for retrofit. Such grants tend to cover something like 30% of your station cost, which is a lot of money on a new station, but a tiny amount on just adding a cable. As discussed, Tesla already has hardware and software in their units to talk the CCS protocols. However, if Tesla can take a station they spent $500,000 installing, and add CCS cables to it for $20,000 and collect a $150K grant for having brought on 12 new CCS stations, they will be interested in that, especially at stations that don't fill up. (Their busiest stations probably would not add CCS support at first until expanded.)

As yet Tesla has expressed the intent to support CCS cars, but has not said how and at how many stations, but they have made mention of both stations with CCS cables, and adapters, both for CCS drivers, or to put at stations. No firm word on the details. It is likely that they will charge CCS drivers more than they charge Tesla drivers, though that is hard to do at the new prices. None of the grants forbid sites from giving better prices and service to "members" and in fact that is EA's standard procedure.

 

[Mockingbird]

So again, you are just making arguments (we have seen these arguments many times here, so we're mostly interested in new information.

The grants for stations to have CCS primarily would be used on new stations, unless they will provide significant money for retrofit. Such grants tend to cover something like 30% of your station cost, which is a lot of money on a new station, but a tiny amount on just adding a cable. As discussed, Tesla already has hardware and software in their units to talk the CCS protocols. However, if Tesla can take a station they spent $500,000 installing, and add CCS cables to it for $20,000 and collect a $150K grant for having brought on 12 new CCS stations, they will be interested in that, especially at stations that don't fill up. (Their busiest stations probably would not add CCS support at first until expanded.)

As yet Tesla has expressed the intent to support CCS cars, but has not said how and at how many stations, but they have made mention of both stations with CCS cables, and adapters, both for CCS drivers, or to put at stations. No firm word on the details. It is likely that they will charge CCS drivers more than they charge Tesla drivers, though that is hard to do at the new prices. None of the grants forbid sites from giving better prices and service to "members" and in fact that is EA's standard procedure.

You clearly haven't read the actual guideline.

Federal funding can be used to retrofit non-NEVI compliant charging stations and not having CCS is considered to be non-NEVI compliant.

Obviously, the fund has to be used to retrofit the charging stations.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

...and Tesla wants money from the US government which requires that the Supercharger have CCS

Also, Tesla to J-1772 adapter already exists and is plentiful on the market.

There's no legal or competitive reason to take on the large costs of switching, as was the case in Europe.
There are already well over 1 million Teslas sold in the USA with a very large infrastructure based on Tesla's connector, both for DC and AC, which wasn't the case in Europe, where they only needed to add a much smaller number of DC cables and provide a much smaller number of DC adapters.
It can get government money by adding cables, which are only a fraction of the cost of installation.