Tesla making HUGE mistake with Superchargers

[cusetownusa]

4 chargers per station are enough for a lot of places.

How often do you think 4 people are going to charge at the same time in Wall, SD?

If they all worked than maybe for some places, but I don’t live in Wall, SD but travel along heavily trafficked areas across NY state. However, my experience is they never all work and one seems to have a bolt charging at 30kW for an hour+.

For example:

Westbound I-90 Warners Travel Plaza (Mailing Address 2660 Brickyard Rd, Warners, NY 13164

 

[Mockingbird]

If they all worked than maybe for some places, but I don’t live in Wall, SD but travel along heavily trafficked areas across NY state. However, my experience is they never all work and one seems to have a bolt charging at 30kW for an hour+.

For example:

Westbound I-90 Warners Travel Plaza (Mailing Address 2660 Brickyard Rd, Warners, NY 13164

The problem is that you assume that the rest of the country is New York, when in fact, the majority of the country is very rural.

 

[cusetownusa]

The problem is that you assume that the rest of the country is New York, when in fact, the majority of the country is very rural.

Not even sure what that is suppose to infer but just because I live in NY it doesn’t mean I live in NYC. Only NYC and Its immediate surroundings are densely populated. Either way, they need to be able to charge their non teslas too, right.

Road-tripping across NYS and the north east, based on my experience, would suck with a non tesla.

 

[Mockingbird]

Not even sure what that is suppose to infer but just because I live in NY it doesn’t mean I live in NYC. Only NYC and Its immediate surroundings are densely populated. Either way, they need to be able to charge their non teslas too, right.

Road-tripping across NYS and the north east, based on my experience, would suck with a non tesla.

Have you tried Evolve NY and Electrify America locations?

 

[cusetownusa]

Have you tried Evolve NY and Electrify America locations?

Yes. This was the last location I tried.

Saratoga Springs City Center Parking Lot 37 High Rock Ave, Saratoga Springs, NY 12866, USA

 

[Mockingbird]

Yes. This was the last location I tried.

Saratoga Springs City Center Parking Lot 37 High Rock Ave, Saratoga Springs, NY 12866, USA

station should work fine using the app

 

[cusetownusa]

station should work fine using the app

The link I tried to post from the PlugShare app doesn’t seem to work. But if you go to the PlugShare app for this location you will see frequent complaints of 3 out of 4 not working. Luckily for me, only 1 wasn’t working and there was one available. But it only charged at 32kw. Not a huge problem as we stopped to eat breakfast and had enough juice to make a supercharger as needed. But I later found out that the slow charge rate was could be due to the cable cooling being broken.

Maybe my experience and PlugShare research if places to stop is unique, are you saying that your experience is that your non tesla automatically routes you to fast chargers and you can always rely on them to be working and not in use even if there is only 2-4 chargers at each station?

 

[Mockingbird]

The link I tried to post from the PlugShare app doesn’t seem to work. But if you go to the PlugShare app for this location you will see frequent complaints of 3 out of 4 not working. Luckily for me, only 1 wasn’t working and there was one available. But it only charged at 32kw. Not a huge problem as we stopped to eat breakfast and had enough juice to make a supercharger as needed. But I later found out that the slow charge rate was could be due to the cable cooling being broken.

Maybe my experience and PlugShare research if places to stop is unique, are you saying that your experience is that your non tesla automatically routes you to fast chargers and you can always rely on them to be working and not in use even if there is only 2-4 chargers at each station?

If it's stuck at ~32 kW, that's caused by a failed temperature probe.

In V1 of the Huber+Suhner cable, that requires replacing the cable.

The temperature probe failed so often that in V2 of the Huber+Suhner cable, the temperature probe can be replaced independently of the cable.

 

[MountainRatMat]

Tesla makes its own equipment.

That gives Tesla a lot of flexibility than just placing orders for replacement parts and hoping that they arrive eventually.

I guess my point is that if you really want to make it work then you will make it work. There is no incentive for EA or EA's suppliers to do better. This is why the network isn't as good as the Tesla supercharging network.

Tesla will continue to dominate even when they open their chargers to non-Tesla EV's because they are hungry and their competitors are not.

A big reason I'm not buying a Rivian or F-150 lightning today is because they can't use the supercharger network. A second reason is I want the Cybertruck but that is at least a year out if not more.

 

[RTPEV]

4 chargers per station are enough for a lot of places.

How often do you think more than 4 people are going to charge at the same time in Wall, SD?

If it's the only fastcharger >50kW available on I-90 in SD, I imagine it could potentially be a bottleneck. And if 1 or 2 stalls are down.

The problem is that you assume that the rest of the country is New York, when in fact, the majority of the country is very rural.

Yes, on the flip side, Wall, SD may be very rural, and likely would not have as much traffic at a given site. However, given the extremely low density of chargers along that route, it's even more important that the chargers that are there are available.

(also, speaking as a native New Yorker that grew up in a quaint town of 4000 (and this was the biggest town in the county), which is like a metropolis compared to where my in-laws live (the nearest gas station is about 45 minutes away), I would also like to caution against assuming that New York is not rural. Huge portions of it are indeed quite rural and without really great charging station coverage.

That said, unlike @cusetownusa 's NYS charging experience, mine has been pretty good. You might need to do a bit of research on Plugshare to know which stations to avoid (seems like @cusetownusa cherry picked at least one loser of a site to exhibit). There are a couple of stations that I specifically avoided due to unfavorable reports on Plugshare, or too few stations (1 or 2) per site, but I had good experience in Syracuse (okay, this is not rural), Watertown, Waterloo, and Canton (only 24kW charging at this one, but it worked fine).

I don't know if the average Joe is going to be willing to do as much research as I did to avoid getting stranded. For all I know, they may not even do much research to find out of the way charging stations at all. They may stick with the major networks. And as others have said, a poor experience at these networks if they can't get things working well is going to leave a sour taste in the mouth of new EV owners. That bad first impression is hard to get over.

It's all well and good that you have excuses like bad temp sensors and motherboard shortages and so on, but at the end of the day, these stations are broken or underperforming, and this is a real problem that you can't just sweep under the rug. The new EV driver that is going on their first road trip and winds up stranded or taking twice as long to make the trip because of a broken charger is not going to just say, well, it's the motherboard shortage you know.

 

[chinney]

They didn't start as a standalone business (specifically Tesla and EA), but they're going to have to figure out to be a sustainable business.

[...]

I agree. Fast on-the-road charging did not start as a business, but that does not mean that it cannot become one. And it should, in my view. People can expect to pay more for the ability to charge quickly while on the go. Some aspects of the model will be different from current petrol stations. On one hand, you maybe will not need as many as them, as many people - albeit, not everyone - will be able to 'fill up' with electrons at home. On the other hand, time at the station will be a bit longer, at least under current technological limitations, since charging takes more time. But the basic idea is there.

I don't think people will begrudge paying a price that will allow for sustainable charging businesses if they get reliable service that is as quick as current technology allows and is at a fair price. I don't fundamentally object to Tesla turning Supercharging into a profit centre - as I think that they have been doing (even if they promised otherwise). Most of the time I charge at home, but if I need to charge on the road, I am willing to pay the premium. On the other hand, I also would like to see competition in charging, so that prices do stay fair.

In my view, all this is coming...and coming soon. Charging infrastructure, including the business model for charging, is going to be fundamentally transformed over the next decade.

 

[MP3Mike]

I don't think people will begrudge paying a price that will allow for sustainable charging businesses if they get reliable service that is as quick as current technology allows and is at a fair price.

People are already complaining about how much Tesla has started charging during peak times... So yeah, they will.

 

[bradtem]

I agree. Fast on-the-road charging did not start as a business, but that does not mean that it cannot become one. And it should, in my view. People can expect to pay more for the ability to charge quickly while on the go. Some aspects of the model will be different from current petrol stations. On one hand, you maybe will not need as many as them, as many people - albeit, not everyone - will be able to 'fill up' with electrons at home. On the other hand, time at the station will be a bit longer, at least under current technological limitations, since charging takes more time. But the basic idea is there.

I don't think people will begrudge paying a price that will allow for sustainable charging businesses if they get reliable service that is as quick as current technology allows and is at a fair price. I don't fundamentally object to Tesla turning Supercharging into a profit centre - as I think that they have been doing (even if they promised otherwise). Most of the time I charge at home, but if I need to charge on the road, I am willing to pay the premium. On the other hand, I also would like to see competition in charging, so that prices do stay fair.

In my view, all this is coming...and coming soon. Charging infrastructure, including the business model for charging, is going to be fundamentally transformed over the next decade.

Road trip fast charging where you have no other choice could be a business, though sadly the price tends to get high, higher than the cost of gasoline for an efficient hybrid car. That's OK, we can tolerate paying that much on road trips and saving lots of money driving around the city, but we always hoped for better.

It needs to get a lot busier. My latest calculation shows the average non-Tesla DC Fast charger last year got used 1.5 times per day! It's almost impossible to see how that can be a business at that rate. Stations are costing $100K to $150K to put in, though there are heavy subsidies to help with that, but I don't think it's a business if it only works because of subsidies.

One of the challenges for now is that a lot of people want to charge during the time electricity is the most expensive. Sure, you can put batteries in a charging station, but you can also just put the batteries on the grid. Whether you pay for it in the batteries or pay for it in the higher peak prices, electricity costs you more if you want it after 3pm.

 

[moa999]

Think the other point on home charging is people forget the equipment cost.
Now some people may get away without spending much, but others will be paying $2-3k (or more) for a professional install including charger.

Amortise that over the miles you actually charge at home and that can add quite a bit to your effective cost.

 

[bro1999]

(also, speaking as a native New Yorker that grew up in a quaint town of 4000 (and this was the biggest town in the county), which is like a metropolis compared to where my in-laws live (the nearest gas station is about 45 minutes away), I would also like to caution against assuming that New York is not rural. Huge portions of it are indeed quite rural and without really great charging station coverage.

I camped at Watkins Glen State Park earlier this month, and I can confirm that indeed, large portions of NY are rural and barren of much charging infrastructure.

 

[RTPEV]

Think the other point on home charging is people forget the equipment cost.
Now some people may get away without spending much, but others will be paying $2-3k (or more) for a professional install including charger.

Amortise that over the miles you actually charge at home and that can add quite a bit to your effective cost.

Actually I did run a similar kind of analysis, and the results were a bit surprising to me.

Like most, I make the claim that I charge at home 98% of the time, and it's only during one or two trips a year that I use Superchargers. Which is true.

However, when I actually crunched some numbers (or rather let TeslaFi do it), I actually discovered that in terms of power delivered at home vs. Superchargers, it's not near 98% at all, but rather about 84%:

Still the large majority of charging is done from home (or technically also at public L2 charging stations), but despite the relatively small number of days per year using a Supercharger, I drove an inordinate number of miles on those days. An single day 800 mile trip with 3 Supercharger stops for example would equal about 40 days' worth of home charging.

A bit off topic, but an interesting observation anyway.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

My latest calculation shows the average non-Tesla DC Fast charger last year got used 1.5 times per day!

This whole thing really comes down to the fact that they need to lose money before they can make money. They need to demonstrate that their reliable before people really trust them to support road trips.

There is already a feeling among non-Tesla EV owners that the flood gates will open with Tesla opening up their network. That feeling is there because people trust the Tesla Supercharger network. Sure they might have concerns about how busy it is, but they plug in its very likely to work. Versus the EA game where you have to check before traveling there, and then look for any LCD that's off (those don't work). If the screen is on then plug, pay and prey.

On the other side you have Tesla owners who want a CCS adapter so they can charge at EA (or non-Tesla CCS L3 chargers) if either location or availability is better.

I think your calculations next year (at least for the West Coast) will show something dramatically different given the sales of Ford EV's,. Hyundai EV's, Rivian and others. A lot of those options didn't exist last year.

 

[bradtem]

This whole thing really comes down to the fact that they need to lose money before they can make money. They need to demonstrate that their reliable before people really trust them to support road trips.

There is already a feeling among non-Tesla EV owners that the flood gates will open with Tesla opening up their network. That feeling is there because people trust the Tesla Supercharger network. Sure they might have concerns about how busy it is, but they plug in its very likely to work. Versus the EA game where you have to check before traveling there, and then look for any LCD that's off (those don't work). If the screen is on then plug, pay and prey.

On the other side you have Tesla owners who want a CCS adapter so they can charge at EA (or non-Tesla CCS L3 chargers) if either location or availability is better.

I think your calculations next year (at least for the West Coast) will show something dramatically different given the sales of Ford EV's,. Hyundai EV's, Rivian and others. A lot of those options didn't exist last year.

There will be no flood gate. If Tesla decides to "open up" there are a few ways they could do it. One way would be to sell or provide a SC to CCA adapter (reverse of the adapter we're all hunting.) Then those who bought that could indeed wander the whole network. I have not heard them talk of that, or the even stronger plan of putting such adapters on a tether at SC or in a lockbox you open with your Tesla app. This adapter would need to have a fairly long cable on it, making it pretty bulky, for cars that don't put their CCS port on either the rear driver or front passenger corner, which is a lot of vehicles. (Owners of different cars could buy adapters with the right length of cable. This cable would be mega thick and could not be liquid cooled and might limit current.)

More often I have heard of them putting CCS cables on the SC. Those will need to be longer cables. Those would need to be added one stall at a time around the continent. No flood. It would start with new SC, then apply to retrofit of old SC.

In some states laws would also require 1 CdM reverse adapter too.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

Think the other point on home charging is people forget the equipment cost.
Now some people may get away without spending much, but others will be paying $2-3k (or more) for a professional install including charger.

Amortise that over the miles you actually charge at home and that can add quite a bit to your effective cost.

I don't think its because people forget about it, but because they classify it differently. Where its more of an investment.

Even when I had free supercharging for the life of my Model S (back in 2015) I didn't consider Supercharging to be a realistic way to deliver electrons to my vehicle. I didn't because of concerns over battery longevity as you're not supposed to fast charge a LOT.

Plus 75% (or more) of the entire point of an EV was to charge at home because I wanted to save time. I didn't want to have to get up early to get gas before going to work.

I gladly paid the $1K+ it took to get the equipment in place which I still use today.

I don't think I'd own an EV if I didn't have home charging or at least charging at work. We're adding chargers where I work so I'll have that as a backup. I've had an EV since 2015 so I'm pretty used to L2 being really cheap, and L3 cost being dependent on location (after I gave up free supercharging).

Ultimately price limitations for L3 come down to alternatives.

Simply not going
High MPG gas vehicles or Hybrids instead of an EV
Trains (where viable)
Planes - Not this year unless you want to be stranded in an airport
Destination charging - My favorite because it pays for the valet parking in the places I go.

It would be interesting to see what poll results would show if someone sat at a popular Tesla Supercharger all day asking people about their reasons for being there. If they had free supercharging, if they had charging at home, if they road tripping.

I haven't had a Rivian for long, but I can already tell that there going to be at a lot of EA chargers given the fact that the owners are using them as road trip adventure vehicles.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

There will be no flood gate. If Tesla decides to "open up" there are a few ways they could do it. One way would be to sell or provide a SC to CCA adapter (reverse of the adapter we're all hunting.) Then those who bought that could indeed wander the whole network. I have not heard them talk of that, or the even stronger plan of putting such adapters on a tether at SC or in a lockbox you open with your Tesla app. This adapter would need to have a fairly long cable on it, making it pretty bulky, for cars that don't put their CCS port on either the rear driver or front passenger corner, which is a lot of vehicles. (Owners of different cars could buy adapters with the right length of cable. This cable would be mega thick and could not be liquid cooled and might limit current.)

More often I have heard of them putting CCS cables on the SC. Those will need to be longer cables. Those would need to be added one stall at a time around the continent. No flood. It would start with new SC, then apply to retrofit of old SC.

In some states laws would also require 1 CdM reverse adapter too.

Okay so maybe like a trickle, but its going to happen.