Tesla Model 3 Performance vs BMW M3 - The Mic Drop

[brianman]

BMW/Audi/Merc have worked quite hard to differentiate their performance version cars from their standard cars with lots of differences to help consumers justify the huge price difference and feel that they are getting something 'special'.

Hopefully in the future Tesla will do more to differentiate their P version cars from the standard versions. One reason I got dual motor vs P3D (I would have opted for P3D+ so $15,000 difference at the time) was that I felt strongly that in several years time Tesla will be doing more to differentiate the performance version cars from the standard version, special adaptive suspension setups, different cosmetics, unique colors, unique wheels (not just bigger) are all possibilities.... so I'd rather save the $15K and put it towards that future version of the car if it eventually shows up. Or get an electric M car if that comes out in 5 years time and is better than the Tesla 3.

I prefer function to bling. If Tesla offered a discount to drop the red calipers for functionally identically non-red, I would have gone for that in a heartbeat. YMMV.

 

[lotusland]

I own a Giulia Quad. and a Model XP100D. And although I'm sure the suspension tuning of the Model 3 is much better they are basically from the same pedigree, it comes down to emotion and passion and Teslas are completely void of any of that. It's like comparing the latest and greatest iphone to a guitar. No matter how fast my Tesla goes from 0-60 , I still consider it as a very expensive appliance catered for comfort and convenience. The visceral emotion of driving a four door Ferrari will never be replicated by an electric car, and that's why ICE will always have a market for the car lovers.

The S and the 3 are not similar when it comes to driving fun -- what I suspect you are calling "emotion and passion". My other car is a Lotus Elise and I find my P3D- to be every bit as fun to drive as the Lotus, even in the twisties. Unfortunately I think your observation above says much more about the S than it does about anything else.

 

[acoste]

One of the things that set Model 3 apart from other cars on the track is the remarkably low center of gravity.
BMWs have very high centers of gravity due to their relatively high mounted motors. The turbo of supercharged models are even worse as they are mounted high on the motors.

This gives a unique feel and advantage to Tesla going around corners. They can run relatively soft suspensions, yet get much less body roll.

I can remember BMWs at local tracks lifting an entire wheel and tire assemboy completely off the ground in hard corners. Essentially becoming a 3 wheeler until the corner straightened out.

The center of gravity for ICE cars is not as high as one might think. And the second factor in the body roll is the point of the roll axis.

BMW 3 series 20"
BMW M3 ~18.5" this is my guess
Toyota FT-86 / Subaru BRZ / Scion FR-S: 18.1"
Tesla S: 17.5"
Tesla Model 3: 18.5"
Tesla M3P: ~17.5" this is my guess
Lexus LFA: 17.7"
Porsche 911 GT3: 17.9"

I couldn't find the M3P's data. this site: Tesla Model ≡ says center of gravity: 18.5" I think that's the regular and M3P is ~1 inch lower, around 17.5"

The BMW M3 designers putt lot of effort into bringing the center of gravity down. I can't find the number, just guess that it's about ~18.5". It has carbonfiber roof and aluminium chassis parts. Battery and other heavy components are low at around axis level.

For a given center of gravity and cornering rate, a higher roll axis (closer to the center of gravity) yields less body roll. Now for electric cars the center of gravity is closer to the roll axis so they can afford softer springs.
Now on these videos the BMW has less body roll. But it has a stiffer suspension. Not as great on a bumpy street.

Watch this video from 3:55:

And this one from 0:50. Red is a stock M3P. White has aftermarket suspension.

 

[acoste]

As for the stopping distance, assuming both cars have the same tires, same brakes, the BMW M3 wins since the Tesla M3P is 16% heavier. BMW is also faster in curves due to the weight since the centrifugal force (that wants to push sideways) is square proportional to the speed while the friction force (that keeps it on the road) is linearly proportional to the weight of the car.

I found the M3P has a drag coefficient of 0.23 that is very different from BMW's 0.35. The reason why BMW's is that high is because the shape creates down-force at high speeds (and more cooling as well).
This is a compromise for Tesla about range vs. grip at high speeds.

Earlier I made a mistake here in the explanation. Initially I thought that in the curve the centrifugal force of heavier weight will outgrow the friction force. But this is not the case as long as very basic physics apply.
The difference is coming from the tire grip versus weight. The article below explains it well.

"The 500 pounds of weight adds 500 pounds of vertical load to the tires, but because the relationship between the vertical load increase and traction increase is nonlinear, the amount of traction increase will only be about 400 pounds."
For this reason the heavier car will have lower cornering speed.

Getting a Grip – Examining the elements of tire traction | NASA Speed News Magazine

So the BMW is faster in curves due to
- less weight
- more downward force due to aerodynamics but less centrifugal force (matters only at high speeds)
- shorter stopping distance
- wider tires

M3P is faster coming out of a curve if the speed is lower than 50mph

 

[Xenoilphobe]

99+% of BMW buyers never go to the track. 99.99+% of all car buyers never to go the track either. A lot of people do care what they could do when seeing another fast car next to them at the pole position if front of the stop light, our when needing to fight for the ramp position with another one, though.

And most can't drive the car they have... I remember some kid in daddy's BMW M6 convertible pulling up to me at a light when I got my first of three Model S's in 2013 (P85), the interesting thing is on paper the specs are very similar, (overweight, similar 0 to 60, ridiculous HP (560HP for the BMW), etc).
We launch at a light, and I can hear the engine in his car sounding like it was going to explode, he attempts to shift to second gear and missed... I now hear the engine hit the RPM limiter and he disappears behind me.... at the next light he won't even come up beside me to talk, the best part was his girlfriends reaction... she was laughing her ass off...poor guy had that "asian flush syndrome" - like he had chugged a ton of beers. I'm sure his dad appreciated the max revs on a car with 30 day tags and the stripped gears at high RPM...

 

[Xenoilphobe]

What did @voip-ninja disagree with in the original post? Is something there factually incorrect?

He's upset his 340xi is just dropped 50% of its value.. here is his youtube channel....

 

[Xenoilphobe]

Forum posts yes, but don't forget the major car magazines are also writing the same things and asking the same questions. Just google BMW M3 vs Tesla Model 3 Performance and you'll see plenty of people who have plenty of experience with cars like the BMW M3.

You can also tell your friend that another name for BMW among Germans who prefer cars from Stuttgart, is Bayerische Mist Wagen (in English, Bavarian manure vehicle).

My favorites:
BMW Bitch, Moan and Whine
BMW Brutal Money Waster
BMW Break My Wallet
BMW Bring Many Wrenches
BMW Bad Mannered Wankers

 

[Xenoilphobe]

It's mind blowing to me when people imply that they are covered by super-charger.

Let's say I take a road trip to my parents place in northern new england. The closest supercharger is over 100 miles away. That's not even a rural area.

Yes, if you road trip between major metro areas Supercharger probably has you covered in most cases, but not even all of those. If you go to smaller towns forget it... unless you are going to make side-trips to super-charger or other charging station to top off while you are there and wait around for hours doing it.

Again, there are use cases, lots of them in fact, where gas cars are still a lot more convenient.

Ok, please name some. I'm honestly curious to learn.

I do like their $4000 headlights..

 

[Xenoilphobe]

The Model 3 is supposed to be a Camry. It's done its job if it people quit buying Camry's and buying Model 3s.

Can't believe I missed this epic thread, complete with mod action to snipiness.

Tesla doesn't make any enthusiasts cars in my opinion. They are computers and ipads sitting on tires and fast electric motors.

Maybe some day when Tesla can get more than 3 kinds of bodies built, and more than 4 paint color choices we'll see a Tesla performance division.

Obviously, I made my choice based on what my needs and my priorities were.

While the Performance Model 3 eats the BMW M3 in a straight line, the P Model 3 has not made the BMW M3 pointless yet. In a few years maybe, but it hasn't happened yet.

Also, when it comes to an enthusiast looking car:

BMW M3 is a sexy beast

View attachment 349642

vs

Tesla Model 3

@MXWing
Did you forget about this? I think the whole company is a performance division, and this is its flagship...

 

[rdlink]

There are plenty of places to drive in the USA where driving an electric vehicle will be far less convenient than a gas car. Can you do it with lots of planning and potential inconvenience of having to stop for hours to charge at campsite/RV-park 220V or 208V charging? Sure you can. Doesn't change the fact that it is still a big limitation.

Will it affect typical urban commuter? Probably not but it will still affect lots of buyers.

And it’s a problem that gets smaller literally every day. In 3 years it will be virtually gone. But ICE cars will still be inefficient dinosaurs.

 

[nvx1977]

people attach their fun to characteristics like engine noise because that's all they ever knew. I bet my kids will wonder why we ever put up with that noise and exhaust fumes. Just the other day, my son asked me what that bad smell was when walking in a parking lot. I said it was car exhaust. He was confused. There's nothing inherently fun about that stuff; it's just nostalgia.

Ex M3 owner here. Yeah that car was a ton of fun, and for many years, I told myself I was going to get a newer one. But then a new kind of fun appeared and I don't have that desire anymore.

 

[rdlink]

people attach their fun to characteristics like engine noise because that's all they ever knew. I bet my kids will wonder why we ever put up with that noise and exhaust fumes. Just the other day, my son asked me what that bad smell was when walking in a parking lot. I said it was car exhaust. He was confused. There's nothing inherently fun about that stuff; it's just nostalgia.

Ex M3 owner here. Yeah that car was a ton of fun, and for many years, I told myself I was going to get a newer one. But then a new kind of fun appeared and I don't have that desire anymore.

Exactly. Week before last I went on an 8 day vacation. Rented an ICE car. The other people on the trip with me own a Model 3, also. We spent the week marveling at how stupid and annoying it was to have a loud, shifting car with thousands of tiny explosions happening within a couple feet of us. So last century.

 

[ohmman]

I prefer function to bling. If Tesla offered a discount to drop the red calipers for functionally identically non-red, I would have gone for that in a heartbeat. YMMV.

When I bought my S P85, you could opt out of red calipers (no discount, just an option) and I chose to do so. Something about red calipers on a sedan didn't fit my personal aesthetic.

 

[SageBrush]

When I bought my S P85, you could opt out of red calipers (no discount, just an option) and I chose to do so. Something about red calipers on a sedan didn't fit my personal aesthetic.

Very good example of how much that red paint is worth.

 

[SageBrush]

There's nothing inherently fun about that stuff; it's just nostalgia.

Fun ? It is inherently disgusting.
Which just goes to show what happens when people rely on nostalgia.

 

[smartypnz]

Apologize. Didn't go thru every post. But noticed your beginning comparison didn't mention software upgrade costs.

(Our 2010 5 series was charged close to $1000 to fix 'software problems')

 

[commasign]

Apologize. Didn't go thru every post. But noticed your beginning comparison didn't mention software upgrade costs.

(Our 2010 5 series was charged close to $1000 to fix 'software problems')

Yep. There’s a post going around on Facebook of a BMW advertisement offering a BMW i3 software update for $200 without any mention of what exactly is fixed or improved. And then it’s $40 for a BMW navigation update which actually isn’t bad compared to the $115 (discounted price) I used to pay for Honda/Acura navigation updates.

 

[TexasTeslaRacing]

The S and the 3 are not similar when it comes to driving fun -- what I suspect you are calling "emotion and passion". My other car is a Lotus Elise and I find my P3D- to be every bit as fun to drive as the Lotus, even in the twisties. Unfortunately I think your observation above says much more about the S than it does about anything else.

I agree. Having owned both S and P3D+, I would always take the 3 over the S. Better driving experience. The S has advantages but not many.

 

[acoste]

Yep. There’s a post going around on Facebook of a BMW advertisement offering a BMW i3 software update for $200 without any mention of what exactly is fixed or improved. And then it’s $40 for a BMW navigation update which actually isn’t bad compared to the $115 (discounted price) I used to pay for Honda/Acura navigation updates.

This information is outdated. The new Gxx generation does have over the air software update.

Software Updates - BMW USA

 

[voip-ninja]

He's upset his 340xi is just dropped 50% of its value.. here is his youtube channel....

Why would I be upset about the resale of a leased vehicle I returned before taking delivery of my Tesla?