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Tesla Model 3 Performance vs BMW M3 - The Mic Drop
- Thread starter commasign
- Start date
I'm with you on this one. And this isn't a "failure" of the EV. There are gas pumps at tracks too -- at least some of them.
It appears you are comparing a BMW M3 to a base Model 3. Shouldn't you be comparing the 330i or something like that. The 330i has a skidpad rating of 0.83 which is objectively worse than the Tesla. Similarly, you are comparing the brake feel of a base Model 3 to a BMW M3.
The BMW M3 has legit points going for it. However, your data along with the "Model 3 loses 25% power" are just false and not helpful to the conversation.
mod note: 7 posts moved to snippiness. Some posts were merely quoting part of the conversation and were moved as collateral damage. If you have important things in those posts you'd like returned to this thread, feel free to copy and paste those sections. Otherwise, be nice.
For now. This is the reality but we all know this is a first gen car that is only 3 months old. Software/hardware/aftermarket changes may nullify the heat issue. I also think the M3 comes with trackier tires, aftermarket tires will narrow that gap.
I haven't seen anyone with real data, but my guess on limp mode was about 25% as well based on my butt dyno.
It is a new design and I think they left room for more horse power and better cooling for the next update.
Having said that, the BMW M3 that we are comparing to came to the market 5 years ago and the new 2020 model will come out in a year. There is a rumor that it will be AWD. And every generation is usually faster. It will also get the BMW version of the Autopilot.
My gut feeling is that the performance drop is closer to ~18% based on your speed difference but I don't have enough data to calculate it.
As for the stopping distance, assuming both cars have the same tires, same brakes, the BMW M3 wins since the Tesla M3P is 16% heavier. BMW is also faster in curves due to the weight since the centripetal force (that wants to push sideways) is square proportional to the speed while the friction force (that keeps it on the road) is linearly proportional to the weight of the car.
I found the M3P has a drag coefficient of 0.23 that is very different from BMW's 0.35. The reason why BMW's is that high is because the shape creates down-force at high speeds (and more cooling as well).
This is a compromise for Tesla about range vs. grip at high speeds.
testarossa
Member
I own a Giulia Quad. and a Model XP100D. And although I'm sure the suspension tuning of the Model 3 is much better they are basically from the same pedigree, it comes down to emotion and passion and Teslas are completely void of any of that. It's like comparing the latest and greatest iphone to a guitar. No matter how fast my Tesla goes from 0-60 , I still consider it as a very expensive appliance catered for comfort and convenience. The visceral emotion of driving a four door Ferrari will never be replicated by an electric car, and that's why ICE will always have a market for the car lovers.
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
I'll definitely be buying a "fun" manual car at some point to sit next to my P3D. (or roadster if TSLA really pops
)I had a 95 M3. Great car.
BMW is happy to sell the M features as an add on to most of their cars though. I had a 330ci with the M wheel package. So not totally an M exclusive.
BMW is happy to sell the M features as an add on to most of their cars though. I had a 330ci with the M wheel package. So not totally an M exclusive.
voip-ninja
Give me some sugar baby
That's not true. Some of the M cosmetic features are not available as part of the M option for non M cars and some aren't even available aftermarket at all.
Examples;
1. Unique interior colors
2. Unique interior options (leather dash)
3. Unique Exterior colors
4. Unique accents to the body kit (front and rear air splitter, different design side skirts, etc., etc., etc).
5. Unique LED lighting
Mechanical/performance features;
1. M brakes (not the same rotors, etc., as the "M performance" brake option for non M cars).
2. M engine (kind of big one).
3. M exhaust
4. DCT transmission.
etc. etc. etc.
Maybe to the typical lay person the differences aren't that noticeable. They are quite noticeable to an automobile enthusiast.
BMW/Audi/Merc have worked quite hard to differentiate their performance version cars from their standard cars with lots of differences to help consumers justify the huge price difference and feel that they are getting something 'special'.
Hopefully in the future Tesla will do more to differentiate their P version cars from the standard versions. One reason I got dual motor vs P3D (I would have opted for P3D+ so $15,000 difference at the time) was that I felt strongly that in several years time Tesla will be doing more to differentiate the performance version cars from the standard version, special adaptive suspension setups, different cosmetics, unique colors, unique wheels (not just bigger) are all possibilities.... so I'd rather save the $15K and put it towards that future version of the car if it eventually shows up. Or get an electric M car if that comes out in 5 years time and is better than the Tesla 3.
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How different are the P3D components to the base 3? Genuinely curious. I know the motors are the same but what about the suspension besides being lowered? I know that the wheel packages are available on both.
The M3 actually doesn't have much at all in common with the 3 series except for interior buttons and controls. All the sheet metal and mounts are different. It's a totally different suspension setup.
I also don't recall saying anything about losing 25% power.
Nocturnal has already commented that he guessed 25% based on how he felt the car on the track. And here you can find his experience:
P3D+ Second Track Day - thoughts
This thermal limitation is not a fixed number. Once the battery or the motors reach the maximum temperature the performance gets reduced slightly and in case one keeps pushing it, it gets reduced further.
And I'm attaching a test from a base Model 3 on the Autobahn. It is not an M3P but the principle is the same.
Model 3: one switched reluctance, partial permanent magnet motor in the rear
Model 3 AWD: same motor in the rear plus one AC induction motor in the front
Model 3 Perf: same as AWD but the rear motors are specially selected at manufacturing, picking the ones that show higher performance
Now right there is an improvement opportunity for the future Performance version. It is very hard to cool the induction motor because the windings are on the rotor. They should really put a permanent magnet motor in the front as well.
Back to the performance limitation. The base Model 3 in the test below does not have the AC induction motor that will give up before the permanent magnet motor.
At some point in this test the speed got limited to 180kmh = 112mph. Max speed is somewhere around 142mph. The power needed has linear and a square components to the speed. When the 112mph limitation occured, the linear component dropped 21% and the square component dropped 38% from the maximum power.
So the power limitation in this case is somewhere between these two = ~30%.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ff0F5f9bmwc
P3D+ Second Track Day - thoughts
This thermal limitation is not a fixed number. Once the battery or the motors reach the maximum temperature the performance gets reduced slightly and in case one keeps pushing it, it gets reduced further.
And I'm attaching a test from a base Model 3 on the Autobahn. It is not an M3P but the principle is the same.
Model 3: one switched reluctance, partial permanent magnet motor in the rear
Model 3 AWD: same motor in the rear plus one AC induction motor in the front
Model 3 Perf: same as AWD but the rear motors are specially selected at manufacturing, picking the ones that show higher performance
Now right there is an improvement opportunity for the future Performance version. It is very hard to cool the induction motor because the windings are on the rotor. They should really put a permanent magnet motor in the front as well.
Back to the performance limitation. The base Model 3 in the test below does not have the AC induction motor that will give up before the permanent magnet motor.
At some point in this test the speed got limited to 180kmh = 112mph. Max speed is somewhere around 142mph. The power needed has linear and a square components to the speed. When the 112mph limitation occured, the linear component dropped 21% and the square component dropped 38% from the maximum power.
So the power limitation in this case is somewhere between these two = ~30%.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ff0F5f9bmwc
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
Yes, thank you. I was thinking about force for the whole time and forgot about power.
The air drag is square proportional to the speed
Drag (physics) - Wikipedia
Power = force * speed. The power needed is cube of speed.
Now there is a linear (friction), square (tires deformation for example) and a cube (air drag) component of the power function.
In this case the power reduction is a mix of the square (-38%) and the cube (-51%), so somewhere in the -48% range.
Uncle Paul
Well-Known Member
One of the things that set Model 3 apart from other cars on the track is the remarkably low center of gravity.
BMWs have very high centers of gravity due to their relatively high mounted motors. The turbo of supercharged models are even worse as they are mounted high on the motors.
This gives a unique feel and advantage to Tesla going around corners. They can run relatively soft suspensions, yet get much less body roll.
I can remember BMWs at local tracks lifting an entire wheel and tire assemboy completely off the ground in hard corners. Essentially becoming a 3 wheeler until the corner straightened out.
BMWs have very high centers of gravity due to their relatively high mounted motors. The turbo of supercharged models are even worse as they are mounted high on the motors.
This gives a unique feel and advantage to Tesla going around corners. They can run relatively soft suspensions, yet get much less body roll.
I can remember BMWs at local tracks lifting an entire wheel and tire assemboy completely off the ground in hard corners. Essentially becoming a 3 wheeler until the corner straightened out.
The Model 3 is supposed to be a Camry. It's done its job if it people quit buying Camry's and buying Model 3s.
Can't believe I missed this epic thread, complete with mod action to snipiness.
Tesla doesn't make any enthusiasts cars in my opinion. They are computers and ipads sitting on tires and fast electric motors.
Maybe some day when Tesla can get more than 3 kinds of bodies built, and more than 4 paint color choices we'll see a Tesla performance division.
Obviously, I made my choice based on what my needs and my priorities were.
While the Performance Model 3 eats the BMW M3 in a straight line, the P Model 3 has not made the BMW M3 pointless yet. In a few years maybe, but it hasn't happened yet.
Also, when it comes to an enthusiast looking car:
BMW M3 is a sexy beast
vs
Tesla Model 3
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I think 25% is probably a fair estimate of the impact on a limited M3P -- at least that's how mine feels (including today at PIR). In fact that's the number I used today as a SWAG in conversation.
With the pedal to the floor, 125+ mph at the start/finish line was easy at the beginning of the session. At the end of the session, even 105+ mph took effort.
