Tesla Model 3 vs BMW 3 Series (Electrek)

[FloridaJohn]

You really think that gas stations are going to be shuttered in 4 years because of a drastic shift to EVs? Really? Come on now. If EVs make up even 10% of new car sales in 4 years that would be impressive. No gas stations will be closing anytime soon.

Gas stations are already closing at an impressive rate and with an only minimal influence from EVs (so far). According to this article,

Gas Stations Could Soon Be As Quaint As Bookstores and Soda Fountains

"Between 1994 and 2013, the number of retail fueling sites in the U.S. fell from 202,800 to 152,995—a 25 percent decline. In 2015, the number had slipped to about 150,000."

It goes on to say, "In many cities, and especially in New York, a gas station falls far down on the list of the best things to do with a piece of land. Owners realize they can run their businesses at modest profits for years to come or sell out to developers for giant premiums. In Manhattan, where the best use for a gas station is a site for condominium or office development, the number of gas stations fell by a third between 2004 and 2014—to just 39."

Now add in the effects of EVs and that number will probably continue to fall quite dramatically. Just look at how many EVs have been announced by companies other than Tesla that will be on the road in 5-10 years.

 

[Petra]

The old ones were rated poor. Now the good premium LEDs are standard in the Model S.

Just checked the IIHS website and they never tested the old HIDs, just the two LED configurations for 2017 build cars... both were rated poor. From my own experience, even the mediocre HIDs in my 2015 S are better than the upgraded LEDs that were in the 2017 build Model X I borrowed last month.

 

[Just a Reader]

The old ones were rated poor. Now the good premium LEDs are standard in the Model S.

There are usually different LED upgrades for german cars, a cheaper version and a very expensive matrix LED upgrade. The later one is good, I agree. But I don't think the standard LED is any better than the one in a Tesla. Its supplier stuff anyway.



I didn't say cheap, but more bang for the buck as more features are included in base versions. As Lexus market share is much higher in neighbouring countries, I don't think this is self inflicted. There is a cultural thing that does apply.

Looking at #222 your claim seems to be somewhat questionable. Anyway, unless they have installed washer jets now any system will be second rate in the EU.

As to Lexus: no estate cars, no Diesels (except the one that was plagued with problems in the IS 220d) and poor leasing rates = almost certain failure in the relevant market in Germany.

 

[bhzmark]

The lack of drivers instrument cluster and the ipad obsession are turning off a TON of potential customers.

It's likely turning off idiots that Tesla doesn't want as customers. No soup for them.

be steering my technologically challenged family & friends far away from the Model 3.

Indeed. Tesla should be picky about who their customers are. The lower percentiles just won't get it and will be more trouble than they are worth. Let the Toyota or Porsche dealers deal with them.

Fascinating. I can't remember the last time I saw a closed gas station. The last wave of closures was in the 1980s,

In the US they are closing like crazy. Does Germany still let people smoke in restaurants? Smoking and gas stations will eventually go away in Europe too. Just takes longer.

Gas cars feel completely broken to me now. The lag-at-all-speeds, the noise, the shifting, the inconveniently timed need to stop at a gas station, the inability to remote start in a closed garage, the 50% more expensive refueling... All ridiculous limitations

Amen

 

[Phrixotrichus]

Model 3 is very very attractive for Europe. I hope we don't have to wait too long for this automotive tipping point to reach us here in the origin of automobiles.

Define attractive....
For EV nerds, yes, for anyone who just looks for "some" next car, no, simply because everything you`ve said about the financial side is bogus for the european market.

I didn't get any discount on my BMW i3. Especialy for new models, it is hard to get large discounts.

Do you really buy unpopular models to get a discount? May be there is a reason that they are unpopular ...

Sorry you don`t know what you`re talking about. I´ve worked in several companies from small to international conglomerate and none had less than 20% rebate...most more in the 30-35% range FOR ALL MODELS ALWAYS (same companies get exactly 0% fro Models S and X). Those rebates are absolutely the NORM for any company and anyone who invests some time looking for good traders.
The only possibility to not get huge rebates on the usual premium brands is if you`re stupid enough to buy directly from the manufacturer as a private person.... and damn you`d have to be either rich enough to simply not care or phenomenally stupid to do that.

The model 3, as great as an EV it may be, will NOT be contending in the same price range as a 3 series / A4 / C-class, but more in the low-mid 5-series/e-class/a6 region, the moment u add pup and the battery upgrade at least. And without those it`s another niche car with low range and a perceived quality that`s not on par with the competition.
Add to that that most new car registrations in the premium sector are company cars and that the SC network in europe is at best holey.....

Would non-ev-nerd average joe go for a model 3 or the glossy BMW 5 besides it if the price is similar?
Heck I really want an EV and wouldn`t do it....concerning bang-for-buck Tesla is much much worse in europe than on the us market at the moment.

 

[tescroft]

Sorry you don`t know what you`re talking about. I´ve worked in several companies from small to international conglomerate and none had less than 20% rebate...

What might be true for you is not for me. Any company I worked for so far (6), small, medium and large, did not offer any car purchases through the company. Some had of course their internal car fleets, but definitly no fringe benefits for employees to buy discounted cars.

Things might be different outside germany. Therefore, your point of view is not valid for the whole continent. Regarding germany, there was a list of current discounts in germany in one of the last Auto Motor and Sport magazines. Audi is discounting their old A4 heavily with around 22%, because sales are so low. They mentioned the Mercedes discounts are in the range of 15%. So obviously, your 30% discount claims seem to be a little exaggerated.

 

[Phrixotrichus]

What might be true for you is not for me. Any company I worked for so far (6), small, medium and large, did not offer any car purchases through the company. Some had of course their internal car fleets, but definitly no fringe benefits for employees to buy discounted cars.

Things might be different outside germany. Therefore, your point of view is not valid for the whole continent.

Since most new registrations for the premium cars (actually 2/3rds of ALL new cars even) are company cars your personal experience simply doesn`t matter. Go to google, takes about 2 mins to find the statistics....

So obviously, your 30% discount claims seem to be a little exaggerated.

Nope, not in company fleets. And as the statistics say, that`s the majority.

 

[tescroft]

Since most new registrations for the premium cars (actually 2/3rds of ALL new cars even) are company cars your personal experience simply doesn`t matter. Go to google, takes about 2 mins to find the statistics....

Again, this applies mainly to germany. This includes also "self-registrations" of dealers and manufacturers, which is done quite heavily in that country.

 

[Phrixotrichus]

Again, this applies mainly to germany. This includes also "self-registrations" of dealers and manufacturers, which is done quite heavily in that country.

Please look at the company car numbers for france and the UK......

It`s simple, really. No one in his right mind pays 70k or more for a car, actually the overwhelming majority can`t. Premium is targeted at company fleets mainly and has been for 2 decades and because of that the big fleets get ridiculous rebates.

 

[tescroft]

If you're suggesting the majority of company cars are in the 70k range, then you're completely off. The vast majority of company cars are bread and butter cars, golfs, passats, skodas, avensis, stuff like that.

 

[Phrixotrichus]

If you're suggesting the majority of company cars are in the 70k range, then you're completely off. The vast majority of company cars are bread and butter cars, golfs, passats, skodas, avensis, stuff like that.

No I agree there. There`s the tax problem with comapny cars after all. SO the expensive models are still somewhat expensive even as fleet vehicles.
All I´m saying is that the luxury vehicles go from "where did my wage for this year go" to "relatively affordable" for average joes as a company car thanks to the huge rebates which is why the premium segment has most of its new registrations in this area.

I´m simply stating that a car with a list price within the premium sector and with no chance of any rebates at all will have a tough standing on the european market.
This probably won`t matter for Tesla since they have their premium EV niche for themselves worldwide and will sell more than they can produce for quite a while.

all I´m saying is that the Model 3 will NOT be mass market price range in europe if Tesla`s price model doesn`t change because of the huge rebates the other manufacturers give.

Anyone comparing list prices here simply has no idea about the reality of the premium market. Tesla is the only one there who actually expects their customers to pay those....

 

[AustinPowers]

I didn't say cheap, but more bang for the buck as more features are included in base versions. As Lexus market share is much higher in neighbouring countries, I don't think this is self inflicted. There is a cultural thing that does apply.

All I can say is, you have no clue about the German automobile market!
We are no more patriotic when it comes to cars than other carmaking countries. Look at the US (where are most Model 3 reservations from after all?), look at France, look at Japan. There is home bias everywhere. Of course in Switzerland everything is neutral, as you have no car manufacturers.

The problem with Lexus was/is that they simply don't make attractive cars imho. Not only that, I find them completely hideous. Add to this the fact that they are only marginally cheaper than premium cars from other countries, and you know why they don't sell here. Honestly, I would rather buy a Dacia or a Skoda than a Lexus. Far better value for money. And as you said Tesla has a hard time in Germany, actually considering that BEVs themselves are still not very popular here, and Tesla is extremely expensive (before Model 3 hits the market here), they are actually doing quite well.

 

[tescroft]

We are no more patriotic when it comes to cars than other carmaking countries. Look at the US (where are most Model 3 reservations from after all?), look at France, look at Japan.

Looking at the US, I see that Lexus has a higher market share (2016) than BMW, Audi and Cadillac for example.

They build very good SUVs and sedans, with cleaner engines than the germans and the americans. Still, they also missed the EV train taking off and will hurt from Model 3 as well.

 

[AceSkywalker]

Looking at the US, I see that Lexus has a higher market share (2016) than BMW, Audi and Cadillac for example.

They build very good SUVs and sedans, with cleaner engines than the germans and the americans. Still, they also missed the EV train taking off and will hurt from Model 3 as well.

Lexus for the meanwhile has one thing. Unmatched reliability. Lexus and Toyota cars have a reputation of being ultra durable and reliable (sold an old MR-2 at 250,000 miles, still ran perfectly fine). Tesla...they've had several issues with reliability and build quality that has no business being in a car that expensive.

 

[tescroft]

And as you said Tesla has a hard time in Germany, actually considering that BEVs themselves are still not very popular here, and Tesla is extremely expensive (before Model 3 hits the market here), they are actually doing quite well.

Tesla is not more expensive than any other german premium car in the same car class. Compare the P100D to an AMG model or a Porsche Panamera with the same specs and you will notice which one is more expensive, including your fabulous discounts. The unpopularity of BEVs in germany is a result of the strong german home industry and patriotism. BEVs are also strongly anti-selled by german media, which are dependent on ads and tv compaings from german car makers. I regularly read german car magazines and they are outlandish biased against import cars and especially EVs. They do weird tests with EVs, driving them full speed over circuits or the autobahn until the battery is empty and then report what happens over several pages. The amount of fake news your read there on EVs is countless. Especially the superior autopilot capabilities of Tesla have been downplayed or ignored for months, while the industries own functionalities have not been on that level. It is no surprise BEVs are not popular when a whole country gets missinformed throughout the day.

 

[Phrixotrichus]

Tesla is not more expensive than any other german premium car in the same car class.

Omg that`s a seriously ridiculous statement. Go sit in a fully stuffed s class then switch to a Model S.... The overall build quality and luxus level is still leagues apart.

TThe unpopularity of BEVs in germany is a result of the strong german home industry and patriotism.

And it gets even more ridiculous...
If you had ANY idea about germany, then you`d know that patriotism is the one thing we absolutely don`t have...also since the situation in all neighbouring countries is the same I guess their "patriotism" and "car lobby" are all involved in the big conspiracy against EVs, too? Bet all the european ministers meet once a month to discuss how to kill EVs....

BEVs are also strongly anti-selled by german media, which are dependent on ads and tv compaings from german car makers. I regularly read german car magazines and they are outlandish biased against import cars and especially EVs. They do weird tests with EVs, driving them full speed over circuits or the autobahn until the battery is empty and then report what happens over several pages. The amount of fake news your read there on EVs is countless. Especially the superior autopilot capabilities of Tesla have been downplayed or ignored for months, while the industries own functionalities have not been on that level. It is no surprise BEVs are not popular when a whole country gets missinformed throughout the day.

God, are you wearing a tinfoil hat right now?
The reality is absolutely simple, no conspiracy or anything.
The EV`s available in Europe are short ranged "specialized" vehicles at premium price level, or hideous crap fiestas that only really "green" people drive voluntarily, or so expensive that they`re competing with the classic dream cars...where they simply lose based on quality and brand recognition.
Together with a pretty much non existant infrastructure that`s plenty of reasons for people not to buy EVs.
When EVs and the corresponding infrastructure are at the point where you don`t even have to think about special charging points, even for trips, then people will buy them. As long as you pay only to be forced to somewhat plan around the car instead of just using it EVs will stay in the enthusiast niche.
And concerning your wild accusations about high speed tests......so testing high speed range and repeated limit accelleration, which is done for all other ICE cars, is somehow unfair...because EVs lose range like any other car .....but take longer to be refueled and have software limiters on the battery output for some situations? Well *sugar* that they compare the usability of EVs with ICE cars...damn if only you could forbid people to do their job, huh?

I want an EV, but I completely understand everyone who completely ignores them at the moment.

 

[tescroft]

@Phrixotrichus
Facts tell a different story. Lets compare market shares June 2017 in two neighbouring countries with similar wealth and similar charging infrastructure.

Germany:
Market Share Tesla Model S: 0.07
Market Share Mercedes S-Class: 0.18

Switzerland:
Market Share Tesla Model S: 0.36
Market Share Mercedes S-Class: 0.13

Swiss buy the better car. Germans buy german.

 

[slipnslider]

It's likely turning off idiots that Tesla doesn't want as customers. No soup for them.

Do you want the carbon from their ICE car alternatives spewed into your air?

 

[Just a Reader]

@Phrixotrichus
Facts tell a different story. Lets compare market shares June 2017 in two neighbouring countries with similar wealth and similar charging infrastructure.

It's quite remarkable how you are missing key aspects:
Switzerland: very small country (smaller than Bavaria), low speed limits, draconian enforcement of speed limits
Germany: larger distances, no/high speed limits, rather lax enforcement of speed limits
Now, which country caters more to EVs, do you think?

 

[tescroft]

Model S does perfectly fine on german autobahn, reaching up to 250 km/h: