Tesla Model 3 vs BMW 3 Series (Electrek)

[AustinPowers]

@insaneoctane: we were talking specifically about the German car market. Over here, every car gets a discount, it's simply the way it is. Of course, more popular and newer cars get less discount than older and unpopular ones, but the fact remains that less than 10% percent discount (for a private buyer at a dealership) is unheard of - unless we are talking about Tesla. Or ultra-high end makes like RR, Bentley, Ferrari, Bugatti and the like. But those only account for a miniscule part of the market anyway. When it comes to mainstream manufacturers (and I specifically include Tesla in that category), discounts are the norm and buyers simply expect to get them. When using the aforementioned internet services for car buying, discounts can get much higher still. And as for company cars, well, we have discussed this endlessly already.
And about "accruing inventory", that is generally not the reason for discounts here, because very few people buy cars off the lot. Usually cars over here are built to order. Cars on the premises are either showroom cars that are not directly for sale, or used cars like those where the lease was up and the customer leased or bought a new one.

 

[insaneoctane]

@insaneoctane: we were talking specifically about the German car market. Over here, every car gets a discount, it's simply the way it is.... .

Yes, my comments were specific to US market. Sorry for the thread blast!

 

[S'toon]

While I do admit that the SC density in Germany is quite good (which is a necessity, since Germany is one of the main transit countries in Europe), the SC density in Canada isn't much worse. You can't apply the same methods to a country where the majority of the land is unpopulated nature. If you look at the areas in Canada that are as densely populated as Europe, you will find that the SC network is about as well built out as over here.



There's also close to 0 population in (far more than) half the country:

View attachment 240224



Honestly, how many people drive coast to coast through Canada, in a car - any car that is? Does anyone do that?



I think it is just no use trying to argue with @tescroft or any other Tesla fanboy who doesn't want to admit the truth.
Conspiracy theory? Fake news? Anti-BEV media campain? Really?

Realities are what they are:

- BEVs in general are still more expensive than their ICE counterparts (if available) or comparable vehicle. This holds true for any country (not just Germany), where BEVs aren't heavily susidized.
- The Swiss market, as others have noted, is rather an oddity in many aspects related to cars, and not really comparable to many other countries. The Netherlands and Norway being notable exceptions.
- Even people who would be partial to buying a BEV sometimes just can't make it work financially yet, and wait for really affordable alternatives

I would bet that as soon as there are long range BEVs available that cost between 20K and 30K Euro, and the charging intrastructure is finally as good and convenient as the gas station infrastructure, BEV sales will go through the roof, even without any incentives at all.
After all, BEV really are the better choice, I never contested that fact. Why else would I have reserved a Model 3 on day 1?

You still didn't look at the map, and are commenting on something you know nothing about.

If someone today wanted to drive from Toronto, to Calgary there are 2 choices. Spend long days going from level 2 charger to level 2 charger driving for 2 to 3 hours, then spending 8 hours or so charging on the TransCanada highway.

Choice two is going to the US border, spending 1/2 an hour to 45 minutes, possibly more having your car searched, while you are being relentlessly interrogated by a hostile US border agent (I've only met one who wasn't), then proceeding into the centre of the US to hop from Supercharger to Supercharger. Then go up the west coast, to the system in BC to proceed East into Alberta.

And yes, Canadians use the TransCanada highway all the time.

 

[AustinPowers]

You still didn't look at the map, and are commenting on something you know nothing about.

Of course I looked at the map. I specifically crosschecked the SC map with the population density map, and I must say they line up quite nicely. SCs in the populated areas, no SCs in the unpopulated areas. Sure, the SC network could be (and will eventually become) more dense, but Tesla has to start somewhere.

Oh and by the way, I have friends and relatives in Canada, and been there myself a couple of times. I do know a bit about the country.

 

[S'toon]

Of course I looked at the map. I specifically crosschecked the SC map with the population density map, and I must say they line up quite nicely. SCs in the populated areas, no SCs in the unpopulated areas. Sure, the SC network could be (and will eventually become) more dense, but Tesla has to start somewhere.

Oh and by the way, I have friends and relatives in Canada, and been there myself a couple of times. I do know a bit about the country.

And I was posted in Germany when I was in the Canadian Army. Doesn't make me a master of all things German. I don't even pretend to do so.

 

[AustinPowers]

And I was posted in Germany when I was in the Canadian Army. Doesn't make me a master of all things German. I don't even pretend to do so.

I didn't pretend to be an expert on Canada either. But you said I was "commenting on something you know nothing about", which was speculation on your part at best. Plus, what I said about the relation of those two maps is blatantly obvious, so no need to be an expert on anything really to draw the conclusion I did. Of course they don't line up perfectly, but it's close enough to be relevant imho.

 

[Just a Reader]

Look at the map. The Superchargers are clustered in a couple of centres, and there's 0 infrastructure in half the country. You can't get coast-to-coast in Canada. Elon Musk's family comes from Saskatchewan. It's a 2 day drive from his mother's home city of Regina to Calgary, since there's no Superchargers.

Obviously you made that post with 0 information.

Well, thank you for confirming my post. Tescroft's claim of "oh, look at Canada, it's x-times Germany's size and people buy Teslas and make long distance drives" is complete nonsense as most of Canada's vast expanse isn't covered by Tesla at all.
To a lesser extent the same is true for Sweden, where the northern part of the country isn't really covered by Tesla either.

 

[tescroft]

If you are so fond of statistics, let's have a look:
BMW 3-series: 25,029
Audi A4/S4/RS4: 37,027
C-class: 43,230
This is the reality on German roads.

This is Model 3 territory once production is ramped up. I don't expect these sales to remain in that league once the new Tesla baby is available. Nevertheless, in germany, the impact of Model 3 will be lower than in other countries, because
- Germans buy german
- station wagons are quite popular in germany
I don't know the exact distribution, but I guess about 70% of that sales are station wagons, may be less for the mercs, may be more for the A4.
Germany is one of the countries with the highest station wagon market share, may be the highest in the world.

 

[AustinPowers]

This is quite likely. Even though I know that there are other countries where station wagens are also quite popular, the UK and Norway for example come to mind. It is actually all those travelling sales- and other businesspeople who prefer station wagons over limousines. Families too, but to a lesser extend nowadays, as the focus there is shifting from station wagons to minivans and especially compact suvs like the VW Tiguan and similar models.

 

[tescroft]

In the discussion Model S vs. the rest, the station wagon argument may be less important, as in this class, station wagons are less common on both the demand as well as the supply side, with almost only german car makers producing station wagons in the upper premium class (5er Touring, A6 Avant). Further more, Model S has more carco space than many station wagons anyway. For model 3, this looks different. No big hatchback door, generally less carco space. Still the better car than other sedans, but there is a drawback in comparison to station wagons, which are an important aspect in this segment in some parts of Europe.

 

[AustinPowers]

In the discussion Model S vs. the rest, the station wagon argument may be less important, as in this class, station wagons are less common on both the demand as well as the supply side, with almost only german car makers producing station wagons in the upper premium class (5er Touring, A6 Avant). Further more, Model S has more carco space than many station wagons anyway.

One thing to remember though is that station wagons from like the 5-series, A6, E-class, Skoda Superb etc. offer more usable cargo space, especially when transporting stuff like household appliances, garden recycling material, large packages of various kinds, etc. All things basically that can't fit in an S due to its sloping roofline. Otoh, one can probably wait for the Model Y to cater for those needs.

 

[tescroft]

In regards to model 3, the lack of a trailer hinch might also be an issue, especially for markets where a trailer hinch is almost a must have (netherlands for their caravans ...). Though Elon Musk once promized that Model 3 will get one, so this might not be an issue any more by the time the european variants are available.

 

[insaneoctane]

I see most people comparing the Tesla to the 330i,but I think that the LR ought to be compared to the 340i. Here's why. People buy the 340i over the 330i for really one reason. Speed. The 0-60 time of the 340i is 4.8, but the 5-60 time is 5.9. I would argue that in most street / drag races that the Tesla would win. The price premium for the 340i is $9k and brings the BMW cost to at least $47.9k (no other options). With the LR you get 0-60 of 5.1 AND increased range. That should help insurance because people will buy LR for reasons other than speed, not the case for the 340i...

 

[tescroft]

Just checked the IIHS website and they never tested the old HIDs, just the two LED configurations for 2017 build cars... both were rated poor. From my own experience, even the mediocre HIDs in my 2015 S are better than the upgraded LEDs that were in the 2017 build Model X I borrowed last month.

Yes, the model S lights both are both rated poor, which is not good for a car in that segment. As we're talking BMW vs. Tesla, I also checked this test for the BMW 3 series.

The standard LED lights included in a 3 series are LED now, not halogen any more as they were some time ago. The standard LED lights are rated poor as well.

Then you can spend an additional (!) 1'200 EUR or CHF 1'740 for curve adjusting LED lights, which are rated good.