Doggydogworld
Active Member
I remember the uber-bulls "proving" 2170s would have 30% (or more) better energy density than 18650s. Ah, the good old days....
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Tesla Powertrain and Battery Investor Day
- Thread starter Jack6591
- Start date
Buckminster
Well-Known Member
CATL-Built Tesla Model 3 Battery Pack Will Use Prismatic Cells | CleanTechnica
Presumably this won't get much of a mention on the day. Prismatics used on cheaper variants with 2170s used across the majority of the international range?
Presumably this won't get much of a mention on the day. Prismatics used on cheaper variants with 2170s used across the majority of the international range?
Buckminster
Well-Known Member
If Elon announces that future EVs can be used as micro grid storage, could this be a s/w upgrade that he could charge $,000s for to unlock?
I've been thinking more about there products/ areas that might be covered.:-
But in attempting to uncover the battery tech that will be revealed YouTubers have done a lot of valuable research and we have all learned more about batteries ....
The most important thing I have learnt is we are approaching an era and rapid battery improvement, and there are no end of options to improve batteries to increase energy density, improve longevity and reduce cost...
As good as what is revealed on Battery Day will be, it is only chapter 1 of a very long book, batteries are going to change human society for the better in lots of ways..
Even psychologically we may see a shift, humans have been worried about the economy, climate change, technology. politics and the future in general for the last few decades ... In particular the debate on Climate Change and the future of Fossil Fuel industries has got very partisan, very heated and very divisive.... in some countries...
If humans suddenly see a glimpse of the future were many problems are solved and there is cause for some optimism, that is a collective mind-set we haven't had for decades... Tesla and Elon are showing people problems can be solved....that is very signifcant.
- Solar Roof
- Supercharger V3
- Megapack
- Plaid Drive - including reveal of new Model S/X
- Battery Chemistry - (including Jeff Dahn?)
- Battery Production (including Maxwell?)
- Battery production ramp and vehicle ramp...
- GF Texas...
But in attempting to uncover the battery tech that will be revealed YouTubers have done a lot of valuable research and we have all learned more about batteries ....
The most important thing I have learnt is we are approaching an era and rapid battery improvement, and there are no end of options to improve batteries to increase energy density, improve longevity and reduce cost...
As good as what is revealed on Battery Day will be, it is only chapter 1 of a very long book, batteries are going to change human society for the better in lots of ways..
Even psychologically we may see a shift, humans have been worried about the economy, climate change, technology. politics and the future in general for the last few decades ... In particular the debate on Climate Change and the future of Fossil Fuel industries has got very partisan, very heated and very divisive.... in some countries...
If humans suddenly see a glimpse of the future were many problems are solved and there is cause for some optimism, that is a collective mind-set we haven't had for decades... Tesla and Elon are showing people problems can be solved....that is very signifcant.
Time-shifting electricity with a big battery like Hornsdale be cost about 8 cents per kWh per day...
Pumped hydro can do it for about 4 cents ... apparently..
I assume most owners would reserve say 40% of the battery and let the grid play with 60% or 30 kWh.....
0.04 x 30 = $1.20 per day,,,,
The grid could pay the owner $1 per day, and Tesla 20 cents per day for each EV...
The owner could pay the grid 8 cents for every kWh they consume... so the owner is also charging their car with cheaper electrcity..
To get the $1 per day the customer would need to plug in at home and work as directed..
I'm not seeing this as worth big money, but every handy in an emergency...
8 cents per kWh shifted?
If you use one shift per day and 20 year battery life, that is a system cost (ignoring round trip efficiency) of $0.08*365*20=$584 per kWh.
US dept of energy 2018 study put variable costs of Li-Ion at $0.03 per kWh and pumped hydro at $0.00025
https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/f...Performance Characterization Report_Final.pdf
To your point, even those numbers don't make it worth while unless there are high peak charges.
If off peak rates were 0.11 and peak were 0.20, with 80% efficiency and 0.04 degradation, that is 0.0225 per kWh profit*40 kWh used = $0.90 a day.
At 0.35 peak, it would be 6.90 a day.
These were my own conservative calcs on converting Hornsdale into today's prices with $100 kWh at cell level and actually in $AUD not $USD.. (I forgot that bit)
My point here was we need to compare the cost of time-shift with grid scale batteries and pumped hydro to time-shifting using private vehicle batteries, so Tesla can't charge thousands for the feature...
As a way of powering your house in an emergency, or helping out another stranded motorist in an emergency V2G is great...,
If a Tesla charges another Tesla, Tesla can even charge the customer Supercharger rates and pay the car providing the electricity Supercharger rates... That is an extra bit of insurance against range anxiety and bad luck..
Doggydogworld
Active Member
I only listened to a tiny bit at the start. It's really dumb. Tesla cell density has been 250 Wh/kg for eight years. These same cells can do 270 if you charge and discharge them veeeery slowly at optimal temperatures. Just like the NCR18650B Panasonic introduced over a decade ago. There is no 3.5% annual improvement.
Tesla is focused on:
1. Cost
2. C rate (fast charging)
3. Cycle life
.
.
.
42. Energy density
People need to get a grip on these battery cell fantasies. Maxwell has no silver bullet (or silver hammer, ha). Jeff Dahn has no magic additives. Panasonic makes regular NCA cells in Nevada, not "Tesla's secret formula". Cylindrical cells are not vastly superior to pouch and prismatic, all have pluses and minuses. Tesla is using stock NMC811 in China and will apparently soon use LFP prismatic as well.
TheTalkingMule
Distributed Energy Enthusiast
So did we ever solve conclusively that the former "Battery and Powertrain Investors Day" is or is not the now "Company Talk" to take place "in April" at the Buffalo Gigafactory? A vocal few here seem to think they are two separate events, but I'm not seeing anything that confirms this.
Things I'm reading have this as just a re-branded battery day.
Elon Musk says 'Tesla April company talk' will be at Giga New York - Electrek
Tweets from Elon are indicating it will be a live webcast from Buffalo rather than a big event with tours, but no date has been set. Is that the up-to-the-minute state of things?
I'll be there regardless if anyone wants to tailgate with status-appropriate social distancing.
Things I'm reading have this as just a re-branded battery day.
Elon Musk says 'Tesla April company talk' will be at Giga New York - Electrek
Tweets from Elon are indicating it will be a live webcast from Buffalo rather than a big event with tours, but no date has been set. Is that the up-to-the-minute state of things?
I'll be there regardless if anyone wants to tailgate with status-appropriate social distancing.
Doggydogworld
Active Member
I believe B&P Investor Day was rebranded to Company Talk and moved to Buffalo after Panasonic bailed out of there.
Of course nobody in NY cares about Panasonic now, coronavirus has pushed everything else off the front page. And the back page. My guess is they postpone the talk until May.
TheTalkingMule
Distributed Energy Enthusiast
If they're just gonna do a live stream I'd love to see it hit before earnings. We have several major positives events coming down the line and they need to be lined up properly.
If the do delay, hopefully it's long enough to allow more in person activities like facility tours.
TheTalkingMule
Distributed Energy Enthusiast
Megapack demand is going to be hotter than anything on the automotive side.
'Tremendous demand for stationary storage' outstrips Tesla's 2020 supply capability, Musk says
My hope is that new far lower pricing for the Powerwall is announced on Battery Day. Megapack should be priced so it's absurdly profitable, Powerwall should be far less. Changing consumer's perspective should be priority.
Here's hoping for a set date soon. I still plan to head to Buffalo if NYS isn't on lockdown by then.
'Tremendous demand for stationary storage' outstrips Tesla's 2020 supply capability, Musk says
My hope is that new far lower pricing for the Powerwall is announced on Battery Day. Megapack should be priced so it's absurdly profitable, Powerwall should be far less. Changing consumer's perspective should be priority.
Here's hoping for a set date soon. I still plan to head to Buffalo if NYS isn't on lockdown by then.
TheTalkingMule
Distributed Energy Enthusiast
I'm working on the broad structure of a plan to transition the US Virgin Islands from diesel/propane to decentralized solar/wind+storage microgrids.
When retail electricity is $.46/kWh and you have massive solar & wind potential.....Tesla can make a killing AND cut everyone's bill in half.
When retail electricity is $.46/kWh and you have massive solar & wind potential.....Tesla can make a killing AND cut everyone's bill in half.
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