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Tesla Range - Surely there’s something wrong?!?
- Thread starter Juve
- Start date
kelvin 660
White SR+ with LFP battery
I don't understand why the don't use the data from the last 30 miles energy screen in the distance on the battery range as that is more close to what you can expect??
I wonder if part of the problem is that ICE cars show MPG and EVs do range on a 'tank'. If ICE cars were advertised at doing 500 miles on a tank, and you got 400 in winter you would probably get similar arguments. I expect some (a lot of) people don't even know the size of the tank in their car (I had my Skoda for 7 years, and never actually looked it up), so don't really collate the MPG to a range for the car.
I know for me in both my old Skoda and my Jag I use remaining range along with the fuel gauge to work out roughly when I need to refuel. Looking at the Tesla I do like to see how many miles it thinks it will do as guidance, but generally use %.
Its a different way of thinking... one I am still getting used to as I haven't been able to actually drive the car any long distance yet...
Gatsojon
Member
The problem for EVs is they are just so efficient. They get around 200 to 300 miles from 75 kWh of energy in the battery.
A litre of petrol contains about 8.8 kWh. So a regular car with a 60 litre tanks holds over 500 kWh of energy. Despite this, it probably has a range of only around 500 miles. With that level of inefficiency, an ICE car can 'hide' all sorts of drains and show only a few percent change.
There is simply no hiding for the efficient EV. Every little thing takes a chunk out.
% battery display all the way. It just takes all this worry and stress away
A litre of petrol contains about 8.8 kWh. So a regular car with a 60 litre tanks holds over 500 kWh of energy. Despite this, it probably has a range of only around 500 miles. With that level of inefficiency, an ICE car can 'hide' all sorts of drains and show only a few percent change.
There is simply no hiding for the efficient EV. Every little thing takes a chunk out.
% battery display all the way. It just takes all this worry and stress away
Glan gluaisne
Active Member
I'm convinced this is a large part of the problem, together with range being such a hot topic as far as EVs are concerned. Whilst the majority of people will be well used to official mpg numbers being mythical, it seems that there are a fair few new EV owners that seem to expect official range figures (derived in much the same way as official mpg figures) to be accurate.
In the early 1990s I owned a Jag one of the first with a "computer" (a 1989 XJ-S) and the range display on that was hilarious. I could lose 50 to 100 miles of range just by driving it around with a heavy right foot for a few minutes.
I think a part of this problem would go away if the display defaulted to %, with range remaining being an option, rather than the other way around. I don't know how long it took people to get used to the mythical nature of official mpg data, but guess that, sooner or later, people will get used to official range data being of the same sort of accuracy as official mpg data, and not have unrealistic expectations.
At least one web site that allows comparisons to be made between EVs tries to list real-world range estimates, rather than the rather unrealistic official range numbers: EV Database
The numbers it is giving for the Tesla Model 3 range at the moment are:
Model 3 SR+ = 210 miles
Model 3 LR AWD = 285 miles
Model 3 Performance = 285 miles
Those numbers are probably about right as an average throughout the year, I suspect. Like any other car, range will tend to increase in summer and decrease in winter, perhaps by around 15% to 20%.
The Honest John website has some real reported MPG for different cars (from owners) and compares that to the manufacturers claimed mileage ... it seems that our ICE second car does 68% of its claimed MPG overall on average ... so sometimes worse than that and sometimes better. Seems remarkably similar issue but hardly gets a mention!
LongRanger
Active Member
We’re still experiencing the growing pains of a switch to an energy source that you can’t “see”
When you go to a fuel pump, a physical quantity of a liquid splurges into a container, and you feel both the quantity and pain of that, with your eyes and in your wallet. At the point of consumption it’s a real tangible thing all the time.
Your brain then translates the usage of that “energy” by either “litres of liquid” or “ money” as you burn the fuel down to refuelling point.
When you charge an EV you see no difference in the car’s makeup or have any reference point for how many electrons are going in.
With a country-wide general mindset shift needed, and a large proportion of population that are wedded to flammable liquids being inserted into their receptacles - it’s just too hard for people to grasp a conceptual of “invisible fuel” vs Range. They don’t always get it.
It’s also an EV market and financial services market presentation issue. Right now as I type this there is a lease company banner advert telling me the Tesla model 3 does 348 miles range. It’s an important number in that it means “most people can use this car normally just like any other car” - but they already ruled some folks out as that’s a lower number of miles than their fuel receptacle and range computer tells them at the fuel station.
There’s also the point that EV ownership means you have your own personal filling station at home / work / wherever and all you have to do is remember to plug it in when you aren’t travelling. This is the opposite of what you do now, in fact sometimes in an ICE you make a journey just to fill up. Again - learned behaviours need unravelling as in the depths of our brains we have a rule that says “burn fuel to do journey to get fuel to get 500 miles more fuel burning range”.
I appreciate there are exceptions to the above such as those that can’t have a home charger and also those that do much higher mileage so 348 mystical miles range might not always be enough - but for the 90% of daily drivers it’s just a brain signal that needs ignoring until you are used to a new approach. You just have to be prepared to want to give it a go. I felt pretty daft after a week of ownership when I realised all my preconceptions of ICE range vs 2020 EV capability were meaningless.
I also accept I’m extremely fortunate to be given a Model 3 as a company car and therefore haven’t had to make a financial choice mixed in with ICE vs EV from practicality point of view. YMMV.
When you go to a fuel pump, a physical quantity of a liquid splurges into a container, and you feel both the quantity and pain of that, with your eyes and in your wallet. At the point of consumption it’s a real tangible thing all the time.
Your brain then translates the usage of that “energy” by either “litres of liquid” or “ money” as you burn the fuel down to refuelling point.
When you charge an EV you see no difference in the car’s makeup or have any reference point for how many electrons are going in.
With a country-wide general mindset shift needed, and a large proportion of population that are wedded to flammable liquids being inserted into their receptacles - it’s just too hard for people to grasp a conceptual of “invisible fuel” vs Range. They don’t always get it.
It’s also an EV market and financial services market presentation issue. Right now as I type this there is a lease company banner advert telling me the Tesla model 3 does 348 miles range. It’s an important number in that it means “most people can use this car normally just like any other car” - but they already ruled some folks out as that’s a lower number of miles than their fuel receptacle and range computer tells them at the fuel station.
There’s also the point that EV ownership means you have your own personal filling station at home / work / wherever and all you have to do is remember to plug it in when you aren’t travelling. This is the opposite of what you do now, in fact sometimes in an ICE you make a journey just to fill up. Again - learned behaviours need unravelling as in the depths of our brains we have a rule that says “burn fuel to do journey to get fuel to get 500 miles more fuel burning range”.
I appreciate there are exceptions to the above such as those that can’t have a home charger and also those that do much higher mileage so 348 mystical miles range might not always be enough - but for the 90% of daily drivers it’s just a brain signal that needs ignoring until you are used to a new approach. You just have to be prepared to want to give it a go. I felt pretty daft after a week of ownership when I realised all my preconceptions of ICE range vs 2020 EV capability were meaningless.
I also accept I’m extremely fortunate to be given a Model 3 as a company car and therefore haven’t had to make a financial choice mixed in with ICE vs EV from practicality point of view. YMMV.
I agree with what has been said here before. If one has used the GOM on one’s ICE before there would be no surprise in seeing figures wildly different to the advertised range.
I remember switching on to the remaining miles display on my BMW 2 because I was lower on fuel and wanted to see whether I could do the 12 mile school run without filling up first. It was showing me over 50 miles when I left - I just about manage to get to my local petrol station on my way back - that was range anxiety
I never got anywhere near the MPG figure that was promised. A mile with the BMW cost me about 18p and now with my Tesla or my Leaf I am on about 1p/mile (Octopus Go).
I remember switching on to the remaining miles display on my BMW 2 because I was lower on fuel and wanted to see whether I could do the 12 mile school run without filling up first. It was showing me over 50 miles when I left - I just about manage to get to my local petrol station on my way back - that was range anxiety
I never got anywhere near the MPG figure that was promised. A mile with the BMW cost me about 18p and now with my Tesla or my Leaf I am on about 1p/mile (Octopus Go).
Is yours one of the new ones with a heat pump? Other point is how much of this is lost overnight? Since recent updates I seem to be losing 3-4% a day as car not sleeping as it used to do.
I have done 14 miles this week, battery has gone from 80% to 50% (2021 LR with no sentry mode). Would hope to do more than 50 odd miles in a 360 mile rated car!!!!!!
I wonder if advertising Summer and Winter ranges would better manage people’s expectations? The Winter hit is quite bad, and not everyone is going to use all their range in one drive most of the time, so I think there needs to be a way of showing that at the point of advertising.
That being said, my A3 wasn’t very efficient, so even Winter driving in my Model 3 is a sizeable saving.
I also think that in terms of mainstream BEV’s we are still relatively early adopters if we think about what is to come, and battery tech is going to improve significantly in the coming years. I imagine range numbers will level out and they won’t be so volatile as a result of improvements.
That being said, my A3 wasn’t very efficient, so even Winter driving in my Model 3 is a sizeable saving.
I also think that in terms of mainstream BEV’s we are still relatively early adopters if we think about what is to come, and battery tech is going to improve significantly in the coming years. I imagine range numbers will level out and they won’t be so volatile as a result of improvements.
Yeah mine is the new model with heat pump integrated.
With a claimed 360 mile range and most of my pre purchase research showing a realistic range of circa 300 miles, the current winter projections are awful. I would have expected around 230-250 in winter, not what looks like under 150. Cars aren’t started and just driven for the whole time so if they can’t handle stop/start journeys then it’s not going to bode well.
My last petrol car would give 350 miles in summer and circa 300 in winter which is roughly 15% less. If BEVs give such poor range just because it’s cold then I don’t see many people sticking with them after the initial purchase.
The range was one of the main reasons I went with Tesla over an Etron etc. I’d hate to think what those cars would give you in winter as they have a much lower quoted range. 50 miles maybe?!?
With a claimed 360 mile range and most of my pre purchase research showing a realistic range of circa 300 miles, the current winter projections are awful. I would have expected around 230-250 in winter, not what looks like under 150. Cars aren’t started and just driven for the whole time so if they can’t handle stop/start journeys then it’s not going to bode well.
My last petrol car would give 350 miles in summer and circa 300 in winter which is roughly 15% less. If BEVs give such poor range just because it’s cold then I don’t see many people sticking with them after the initial purchase.
The range was one of the main reasons I went with Tesla over an Etron etc. I’d hate to think what those cars would give you in winter as they have a much lower quoted range. 50 miles maybe?!?
My old SR+ would get 150 miles in winter doing fairly short runs all the time with no preheating. So new LR should be 250 you would think. Well that is why I upgraded!! Not looking that way right now though.
My niece wanted to get a Telsa and I have to tell her what the range would be like for her in the winter. The weather get under 75F, you lost range. Road is icy or hilly, you lost range. You have snow tires, you lost range. You drive over 60mph, you lost range. You can only charge up to 90% daily, you lost 10% no matter where you are. You want the cabin warm, you lost range. I told her for a LR AWD Model 3, expect around 140 miles usable in freezing winter.
I told her to buy a plug in hybrid. Even if the electric range goes from 25 miles to 10 miles in the winter, it is still usable for local drives to grocery and such.
I told her to buy a plug in hybrid. Even if the electric range goes from 25 miles to 10 miles in the winter, it is still usable for local drives to grocery and such.
Glan gluaisne
Active Member
EVs are very different to conventional cars in some respects. In winter, apart from the obvious impact of cold air etc, there's also a pretty hefty cabin heat requirement. On conventional cars cabin heating is slow, from cold, but has the advantage of using waste heat from the engine. EVs have to use a LOT of battery power to heat the cabin, defrost the screens and mirrors, etc, and that energy has to be paid for by a loss of range if the car's not plugged in.
There's also a change of mindset needed. Driving an EV like a petrol or diesel car, and only charging when the charge gets low, is a very poor strategy. Far better to follow the manufacturer's guidance, and plug the car in whenever the opportunity arises. I've driven plug in cars since 2013, and my routine is always the same, park the car, hop out, plug it in, then go indoors. My charge points are usually set to charge overnight, at the cheap rate, so if the car needs charge it will take it. Every morning the car is charged to the set level (usually 90%) and stays plugged in, so mains power can be used to preheat the cabin and battery before I go out.
This pattern of use gets around the short journey problem (which exists in the same way for conventional cars) and ensures that I always have around 250 miles of range available, should I unexpectedly need to do a long journey (always a possibility with aged relatives). It also means I don't get wound up by apparently high losses from several short journeys without charging.
There's also a change of mindset needed. Driving an EV like a petrol or diesel car, and only charging when the charge gets low, is a very poor strategy. Far better to follow the manufacturer's guidance, and plug the car in whenever the opportunity arises. I've driven plug in cars since 2013, and my routine is always the same, park the car, hop out, plug it in, then go indoors. My charge points are usually set to charge overnight, at the cheap rate, so if the car needs charge it will take it. Every morning the car is charged to the set level (usually 90%) and stays plugged in, so mains power can be used to preheat the cabin and battery before I go out.
This pattern of use gets around the short journey problem (which exists in the same way for conventional cars) and ensures that I always have around 250 miles of range available, should I unexpectedly need to do a long journey (always a possibility with aged relatives). It also means I don't get wound up by apparently high losses from several short journeys without charging.
Since the last update a few of us have seen excess drain overnight. Not sure if it related to temp or something else, but my LR went through a spell of online/sleep cycles and was chewing through the battery overnight.
Juve, mileage is totally meaningless in this context. It is a guess at the best of times and doesn't allow you to see what drain you're experiencing. Change your display to % and tell us what loss you get overnight/per day. That'll help folks here see if the drain is excessive or not.
Changed to percentage and will now monitor drain over night.
I have a home charger installed and I will be plugging in daily to ‘top up’, alleviating any range anxiety but......... this is not the issue and does not solve the underlying fundamental problem. The problem is getting such poor mileage out of what’s quoted to be a 360 mile range electric vehicle. The arguments around using heating/heated seats etc are not really valid. It’s a car. It’s freezing outside. It needs to be able to handle these aspects of being a car and cannot be treated as just a battery.
If I were to buy a petrol/diesel that’s quoted to give 360 miles to a full tank and only came out with circa 150 in the winter, I would not be happy just because I have a petrol station installed in my driveway and can fill up whenever I want. The car would be getting returned. I have never seen such excessive reduction in mileage in the winter in any ICE car no matter what kind of journeys are being done, whether the heating is on or the rear end needs warmed. My 911 is beating the Tesla in winter range at this point......
Car has been charged to 90% and I will monitor my daily drain + miles achieved then report back. I have some longer journeys, 60 miles or so, to be integrated so let’s see what impact that has on acclaimed range out of a full (90%) charge.
I have a home charger installed and I will be plugging in daily to ‘top up’, alleviating any range anxiety but......... this is not the issue and does not solve the underlying fundamental problem. The problem is getting such poor mileage out of what’s quoted to be a 360 mile range electric vehicle. The arguments around using heating/heated seats etc are not really valid. It’s a car. It’s freezing outside. It needs to be able to handle these aspects of being a car and cannot be treated as just a battery.
If I were to buy a petrol/diesel that’s quoted to give 360 miles to a full tank and only came out with circa 150 in the winter, I would not be happy just because I have a petrol station installed in my driveway and can fill up whenever I want. The car would be getting returned. I have never seen such excessive reduction in mileage in the winter in any ICE car no matter what kind of journeys are being done, whether the heating is on or the rear end needs warmed. My 911 is beating the Tesla in winter range at this point......
Car has been charged to 90% and I will monitor my daily drain + miles achieved then report back. I have some longer journeys, 60 miles or so, to be integrated so let’s see what impact that has on acclaimed range out of a full (90%) charge.
i think maybe an electric car wasn’t for you...
It doesn’t sound like you need 250 miles out of a charge. You have a charger you can plug it into anytime you want and 60 miles is a ‘long’ journey. So why worry?
Having said that, beauty of an electric car is the ability to always leave the house with a full battery (or nearly full). Tesla recommends leaving it plugged in and a charge of around 80%.
With it plugged in, you can also easily preheat the cabin and warm the battery, making your short journeys more pleasant and more efficient.
I have a 2021 M3 LR, doing lots of short journeys, and with that method, I’m seeing between 230-290 wpm (326-258 miles per full charge-ish).
It feels like there’s two or three of these threads a week. Maybe people should do more research before splashing £50k.
I think ICE cars are generally much less effected by cold weather.
In a tesla if going long distance charge to 100% (to finish just be leaving) and preheat the battery (especially in winter)
Range will be less in winter on any EV, if you don't like it EVs aren't for you.
But remember even in winter, the fueling costs of an EV is almost always way cheaper than an ICE car.
Especially if charging at home on low rate power.
To get 360 miles range I reckon, it would have to be summer with optimal temperatures, AC off, 50mph continuously on the motorway with no accelerating or decelerating.
I did something like this in our '168 mile' leaf in france when I had a v v long drive and problems with broken superchargers (almost got stranded with flat battery).
I managed just over 175 miles on a charge (i thought it was going to stop me).
In a tesla if going long distance charge to 100% (to finish just be leaving) and preheat the battery (especially in winter)
Range will be less in winter on any EV, if you don't like it EVs aren't for you.
But remember even in winter, the fueling costs of an EV is almost always way cheaper than an ICE car.
Especially if charging at home on low rate power.
To get 360 miles range I reckon, it would have to be summer with optimal temperatures, AC off, 50mph continuously on the motorway with no accelerating or decelerating.
I did something like this in our '168 mile' leaf in france when I had a v v long drive and problems with broken superchargers (almost got stranded with flat battery).
I managed just over 175 miles on a charge (i thought it was going to stop me).