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Tesla replacing ultrasonic sensors with Tesla Vision
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stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
If they planned to drop them and had no plans to add them back in the future, why would they leave the harness in? That's just wasted spending. I can see it totally being supply, just that they had this move planned out instead of last minute. Tesla sold 1.25 million units last year and each car uses 12 of them. That's a lot of sensors, as I pointed out previously, likely way more than other manufacturers (given USS does not come standard in many of them).
As for evidence, I've linked previously other manufacturers doing the same thing (removing options with USS or USS option meaning long delays). All evidence points to this being a supply issue.
Tesla replacing ultrasonic sensors with Tesla Vision
This is all nice but occupancy network is currently not available, so all of those are speculations, based on presentations and beta products. As opposed to USS, which is not only in production but standard in the industry. As a general rule, one does not remove functionality until there is (at...
teslamotorsclub.com
On the flip side, I argued there was little evidence of the radar removal being a supply issue, given other manufacturers were not making the same moves.
sleepydoc
Well-Known Member
Exactly. It had nothign to do with shortages.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
How does that mean it has nothing to do with shortages? Component purchasing has lead times, Tesla's vendors will tell Tesla if there is a supply shortage ahead of time and Tesla can plan for it (including removing an option permanently). What you are saying is a non sequitur (just because it is planned does not mean it has nothing to do with shortages).
Basically it is a fact that there were a shortage of USS last year (that publicly affected many manufacturers) and Tesla removed it in the same time frame.
I fail to understand why there is still no class action suit about this issue? Tesla has misled and lied to hundreds of thousands of customers about forthcoming solution. Since there is no solution in sight, shouldn't they be punished for what they did? Or maybe we should convince authorities somehow to start investigation on how this all happened in the first place?
Good question. I've been on TMC for just over a year, and I keep reading about lawsuits. A few people hinted at small claims suites. There's been stories about class action lawsuits, but nothing has gone to trial yet.
Lots of people asking the same question as you, but no one wants to find a lawyer and get this thing started?
sleepydoc
Well-Known Member
With the sensor issue in particular, it appears that Tesla has been notifying customers of the change before delivery and giving them the option to cancel their order. If that’s true then Tesla has done everything required of it and there are no grounds for a suit.
Daniel in SD
(supervised)
Yep, they can keep an intern working on achieving performance parity until all the vehicles are off the road. In the context of Tesla's long term mission "near future" is obviously relative to the age of the universe.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Yes, that seems to be the difference with previous cases (like AP2). In this case they made it clear there is no specific time table and they put a disclaimer when you take delivery to give a chance for people to cancel (which some did). In AP2, they instead had a specific date on the order page that came and went, and people were able to get a successful class action through. Here in the US, people can literally sue for anything, regardless of merits, but I guess class action lawyers will evaluate if a lawsuit is worth it in the first place (and I doubt anyone will want to spend their own money on it out of pocket to start one for something that seems relatively minor, and is worth as most a few hundred dollars).
People keep asking why Tesla (whether officially through the website, or unofficially when reps are asked) does not give an estimate, and this is likely why. Even if internally they have a time table, they are typically not rewarded for being transparent, especially if there is high likelihood of delays. There are too many sue happy people in the US.
They must be pretty confident they’ve got a vision based solution that replaces USS. I’m skeptical as I await delivery for my M3 in 2 weeks and I’ve been notified I definitely don’t have USS.
Have you seen this?
"Cameras, rear, side and front"
So on Febr 22nd Tesla Europe announces that every new Tesla is equiped with front-cameras...
Do they talk about a bumper camera? Or the windshield camera?
"Cameras, rear, side and front"
So on Febr 22nd Tesla Europe announces that every new Tesla is equiped with front-cameras...
Do they talk about a bumper camera? Or the windshield camera?
Very clever! This would not be your ordinary Elon Musk job description...
Let's see if we can mark up his last one:
"This will mean working
sleepydoc
Well-Known Member
So what I said above applies to new purchases, but what about existing owners? If/when Tesla disables the sensors they have for a system that’s incomplete or less capable, are they liable?
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Presumably you are talking about Vision? It is uncharted waters for cars given Tesla's pretty much the first to introduce the software platform model for cars. For other electronic devices, the case I'm reminded of is battery gate for Apple, the settlement is still working through the court system:
Appeals court rejects $310 million iPhone battery throttling settlement | AppleInsider
A federal appeals court has ruled that Apple's settlement offer of $310 million to users over iPhone "batterygate" has to be rejected and reconsidered because of a legal mistake in the lower courts.
www.google.com
LiamPope
Member
I hope to god they don't ever disable USS, at least for simple manual Park Assist functionality, and there's really no reason for them to justify doing so. The code for Park Assist is finished and working (unlike other things that used USS like Autopark and Summons), so literally all they have to do is leave it in there and give users a toggle in the menu - let's call it 'Legacy Park Assist'. Then owners of cars with USS can choose if they want to keep old USS Park Assist or voluntarily switch over to the new Vision replacement when it comes, or switch between them as they see fit. Doesn't require any 'maintenance of two versions of code' or any nonsense like that as old USS Park Assist code is done. The position of that toggle will be good feedback for Tesla on how good owners think the Vision replacement is! 
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
They won’t, of course. As you say it makes no sense at all (and it is a little strange that people think they might, even though Tesla explicitly says they won’t). The only case where they might is if Tesla Vision ends up being better in all situations, even when the camera vision is obscured and the USS are not. Seems unlikely, given performance of ultrasonics in the rain, and their positioning on the bumpers. This is presumably why they say no plans to do so at this time - Tesla does not think it is possible for Tesla Vision to do the job of USS.
sleepydoc
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately I wouldn’t be so sure - Tesla has done boneheaded things like this in the past.
Not exactly, they just sent an email with the same wording as in Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision | Tesla Support Other Europe. They didn't mention free cancellation or delaying the delivery. Also note that it was "For a short period of time" and "In the near future". What exactly is a short period of time? 1 month, 2 months? The vehicle was delivered in November.
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