Tesla scrutinized by the NHTSA over Model 3 safety claims

[vickh]

The "safest" rating of the M3 was one of the major reasons I bought the M3.

Tesla received a cease-and-desist letter from US agency over Model 3 safety claims


I do agree with Tesla's response below, but not sure if they can keep saying "safest"

https://www.plainsite.org/documents/fnrhg/tesla-nhtsa-foia-response/

 

[Jaguar]

This is really old news (October 2018) dredged up again. What else would you expect from CNBC? They must have a stockpile of old anti-Tesla stories that they can revive whenever they run out of new ways to bash the company.

 

[davewill]

I have to say that I don't agree with Tesla's position. They're using NHTSA data to make comparisons that NHTSA says are not valid or allowed under law. Testing methodology is a very exacting discipline, and Tesla's misuse is simply lying, using statistics.

 

[SageBrush]

How much of a difference in risk of injury is enough to separate out 5 star from others ?
Off-hand I would say ~ 10%

How big a range is currently allowed in the 5th star ?

 

[Kleenerth3]

It seems the only beef the NTHSB has is with the language used.
You can't say that cuz we didn't have a category like that. I agree with Elon, the data points to that conclusion but the legalese police want to wag their finger at him and tell him cease and desist with the non legalese!!!
Nobody at the NTHSB is disputing the 5 stars in every category and sub category, just with Elon... Typical.

 

[vickh]

I have to say that I don't agree with Tesla's position. They're using NHTSA data to make comparisons that NHTSA says are not valid or allowed under law. Testing methodology is a very exacting discipline, and Tesla's misuse is simply lying, using statistics.

I wonder if NHTSA publishes the data, but simply refrains from ranking exactly vs star rating.

 

[bhzmark]

I have to say that I don't agree with Tesla's position. They're using NHTSA data to make comparisons that NHTSA says are not valid or allowed under law. Testing methodology is a very exacting discipline, and Tesla's misuse is simply lying, using statistics.

It seems likely that the NHTSA accepted Tesla’s explanation since there was nothing further disclosed on this matter in the FOIA request. NHTSA didn’t understand their own rules — Tesla explained it to them, as well as what they did and what they did not do, and the agency pursued it no further. Happens all the time in communications between the regulator and the regulated. It worked as it should and Tesla did nothing wrong — they only made fact and evidence based claims that were properly based on the public data that the NHTSA publishes.

 

[jebinc]

I have to say that I don't agree with Tesla's position. They're using NHTSA data to make comparisons that NHTSA says are not valid or allowed under law. Testing methodology is a very exacting discipline, and Tesla's misuse is simply lying, using statistics.

Agreed. There seems to be a pattern of Tesla providing misleading (intentional or not) statements and/or publications (e.g., "FSD" option on ordering page).

 

[Zaxxon]

Agreed. There seems to be a pattern of Tesla providing misleading (intentional or not) statements and/or publications (e.g., "FSD" option on ordering page).

Your larger point aside, the interesting piece (to me) of this particular incident is that Tesla isn't the one providing misleading data. They are taking NHTSA's own data and probability of injury results and publishing them. NHTSA doesn't like that, as they apparently prefer to rest simply on the star ratings. But there's a wide variation in the actual safety level of 5-star vehicles (something like 40% of new vehicles achieve 5-star ratings, and they are not all equal), and Tesla is trying to point that out. As I would expect them to, being at the top of the 5-star heap.

I agree with @bhzmark--had NHTSA pushed back on Tesla's (IMO very objectively accurate) reply, we'd have seen it as part of this FOIA dump. So the bottom line seems to be that NHTSA doesn't like the way Tesla's communicating the data, but they are not going to push back further.

 

[Steve m]

NHTSA conducted a series of safety tests. Each test had a score associated with it. The NHTSA places a grade upon the combined test scores and groups cars into 5 cattagories. This doesn't make the individual test scores go away. If the NHTSA thinks that the Tesla model 3 isn't the safest car they should explain why?

It is as if the NHTSA doesn't trust their own metrics.

 

[jsmay311]

Everyone complaining about anti-Tesla bias should read the actual letter.

The NHTSA makes a very straight-forward claim that it’s inappropriate for an automaker to make broad statements about a vehicle’s relative safety using the NHTSA crash test scores because those tests don’t appropriately factor in the effects of vehicle weight in a vehicle-to-vehicle crash. From a technical standpoint, I don’t see how anyone could disagree with this in good faith.

The rules about what automakers can/can’t say about NHTSA test results in public statements/advertisements are what they are, and they exist the make sure the public isn’t misled. But Tesla’s all like...

This is really old news (October 2018) dredged up again. What else would you expect from CNBC? They must have a stockpile of old anti-Tesla stories that they can revive whenever they run out of new ways to bash the company.

Sigh. Victim-mentality much?

It’s in the news again because the documents were recently made public via a FOIA request.

 

[woodisgood]

It's Tesla saying, "We got a 99.5% on the exam! Highest score in the class baybee!"

And the professor is saying, "It's an A, nothing more, nothing less. 10 other kids got A's too."

Tesla says, "But my A was better!"

 

[Zaxxon]

Tesla says, "But my A was better!"

Right, because per the test results, their A was better.

 

[bhzmark]

Everyone complaining about anti-Tesla bias should read the actual letter.

The NHTSA makes a very straight-forward claim that it’s inappropriate for an automaker to make broad statements about a vehicle’s relative safety using the NHTSA crash test scores because those tests don’t appropriately factor in the effects of vehicle weight in a vehicle-to-vehicle crash. From a technical standpoint, I don’t see how anyone could disagree with this in good faith.

The rules about what automakers can/can’t say about NHTSA test results in public statements/advertisements are what they are, and they exist the make sure the public isn’t misled. But Tesla’s all like...

View attachment 438896



Sigh. Victim-mentality much?

It’s in the news again because the documents were recently made public via a FOIA request.

Everyone complaining about what Tesla did should read the actual response letter from Tesla.

Tesla makes a very straightforward response to NHTSA providing the factual basis for its safety claims based on the data by published by NHTSA. From a technical standpoint I don’t see how anyone could disagree with this in good faith.

The rules about what automakers can and can’t say about the NHTSA test results in public statements/advertisements are what they are, and they exist to make sure the public isn’t misled. And Tesla’s response letter clearly explains how they were compliant with those rules.

Sigh.

 

[woodisgood]

Right, because per the test results, their A was better.

Professor doesn't want the other kids with A's to feel bad. They're all winners.

 

[vickh]

This is really old news (October 2018) dredged up again. What else would you expect from CNBC? They must have a stockpile of old anti-Tesla stories that they can revive whenever they run out of new ways to bash the company.

Interesting in that #1 trending on CNBC and they quoted Bloomberg which is analytical and less sensationalist/Krameresque

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

 

[davewill]

It's Tesla saying, "We got a 99.5% on the exam! Highest score in the class baybee!"

And the professor is saying, "It's an A, nothing more, nothing less. 10 other kids got A's too."

Tesla says, "But my A was better!"

More like Tesla is saying, "we got the best A in any test ever at the school", and the prof is saying, "WHOA there Sparky! All those grades from all those tests and all those years are not directly comparable."

 

[Steve m]

More like Tesla is saying, "we got the best A in any test ever at the school", and the prof is saying, "WHOA there Sparky! All those grades from all those tests and all those years are not directly comparable."

Proffesor I would hope that the tests get harder each year improving safety.

 

[Happy2th]

Just get your participation trophies and let's move on to something else......

 

[vickh]

Just get your participation trophies and let's move on to something else......

yes, that is one of the challenges when all have 5 star ratings. Consumers need to be able to differentiate.

I think Tesla interpretation is correct