Tesla Service says my Tesla Model S 2013 60 kw Main battery needs to be replaced

[Olle]

Whats the most efficient charging ? 40amp or supercharging? those are my options

Excellent question. It partly depends who's efficiency you are counting, yours or Tesla's. In both cases, you could count the electricity entering the car. At SC, electricity enters the car after the converter (charger) loss, while at 40A you have that converter loss in the car.
So far the Supercharger wins.

But wait. Then there are battery charging losses. First part is resistance. As P=I^2*R, the loss already increases with the square of the charging current. On top of that, internal capacitance and Warburg impedance both create voltage rises that increase with charge rate to further increase the loss. These battery cell losses are expressed as heat, which needs to be removed by the thermal management system, using power and further adding to the loss, weather depending. These can add up to pretty big numbers.
That's a win for your 40A charging.

Efficiency for both types depend on many circumstances, such as:

• Did the SC battery preconditioning take energy that was otherwise going to be wasted or was it needed for something else?
• How hot is it? Heat can create more cooling losses, probably more at SC than 40A since there is more heat to remove per charing session. On the other hand, your converter inside the car uses energy for cooling at 40A charging so this argument might possibly go either way depending on weather.
• If it's too cold, your 40A charging uses shore power for battery heating and cells will experience loss from internal resistance while climbing toward lowest cell resistance temp which they might never reach during the session if it is cold enough.

On balance it seems like the 40A charging is more efficient, but would be interesting to see the actual data.

 

[Droschke]

Excellent question. It partly depends who's efficiency you are counting, yours or Tesla's. If supercharging, you are paying for the electricity entering the car, after the converter (charger) loss, while at home you pay at the meter, including the converter loss.
So far the Supercharger wins.

But wait. Then there are battery charging losses. First part is resistance. As P=I^2*R, the loss already increases with the square of the charging current. On top of that, internal capacitance and Warburg impedance both create voltage rises that increase with charge rate to further increase the loss. These battery cell losses are expressed as heat, which needs to be removed by the thermal management system, using power and further adding to the loss, weather depending. These can add up to pretty big numbers.
That's a win for your 40A charging.

Efficiency for both types depend on many circumstances, such as:

• Did the SC battery preconditioning take energy that was otherwise going to be wasted or was it needed for something else?
• How hot is it? Heat can create more cooling losses, probably more at SC than 40A since there is more heat to remove per charing session. On the other hand, your converter inside the car uses energy for cooling at 40A charging so this argument might possibly go either way depending on weather.
• If it's too cold, your 40A charging uses shore power for battery heating and cells will experience loss from internal resistance while climbing toward lowest cell resistance temp which they might never reach during the session if it is cold enough.

On balance it seems like the 40A charging is more efficient, but would be interesting to see the actual data.

Are your descriptions generic or are based on the latest Tesla thermal management implementations?

 

[Olle]

Are your descriptions generic or are based on the latest Tesla thermal management implementations?

Just generic.

 

[geordi]

As for charging... even though it's well below your pack's maximum charge rate, there's next to zero need to be charging above 40 Amps / 9.6kW (running on a 50 Amp rated circuit)

Whether it's at home or at work, anything above 24 Amps / 5.8 kW (running on a 30 Amp rated circuit) will get the job done nicely and keep your pack happy.

As @wk057 mentioned, 120V truly is a last resort - you'll maybe get 40 miles of range overnight, just enough (maybe) for your daily commute, but you'll be constantly running a charge deficit and inevitably having to hunt down the nearest supercharger to top up on weekends. Those two together are possibly the worst combination for your pack.

@Recell I have kind of a unique usage case. First... I'm "owner #2" from the recent brouhaha about locked range packs replaced under warranty - Thank you to Jason's tweet skills for a MAJOR assist in getting that resolved.

But with my 2014 RWD that has a new 90 pack (very new from what Jason had said) - my usage is probably 95% road trip and 5% local. I JUST got back from a 12k mile trip that started off with my pack being restricted and then opened back up while I was in West Virginia with it. This was pretty much ALL supercharging, and all car camping (AC on all the time) for this trip. I wasn't charging above either 80 or 90% though except for a couple legs that there were some questions about SC availability - the middle of Missouri away from the highways, might as well say "Here There Be Dragons" and I noticed that the navigation started to obey my desires of stopping for a charge with around 15-20% rather than less. Temperatures outside were between the high 80s and 106 in Dallas.

So with all that.... What would be the preferred charging profile for best longevity? How much pack wear are we really talking about, if not trying to stuff power in via DC all the way to full?

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I thought that the superchargers were also being respectful of the pack, which is why people were complaining about reduced charge speeds? - I saw mine max out at 122kw a couple times, but only at the lower end of charge status and once reaching around 50% it would taper down pretty rapidly, to 60kw or less. For my camping purposes, I would stop at a supercharger with whatever ~20% and only charge up to maybe 50% for the night, leave the unit and go park / AC on / sleep.... then charge again in the morning to 80% for the next leg of the drive. LOTS (all) highway speeds and usually around 3-4 charges per day like that.

I'm not so much "daily" supercharging unless I'm on a trip, which IS kinda why I bought this car - for road trips. Thoughts? Am I beating the hell out of it or using it the most effectively?

 

[davewill]

I'm not so much "daily" supercharging unless I'm on a trip, which IS kinda why I bought this car - for road trips. Thoughts? Am I beating the hell out of it or using it the most effectively?

Do you really have a choice? If that's your usage, then supercharging it is. I'd try to use destination chargers any time it made sense, but otherwise you do what you have to. I don't think anyone, except maybe Tesla, has any hard data on how "hard" Supercharging is on a pack, anyway.

 

[kirkusss]

@Recell I have kind of a unique usage case. First... I'm "owner #2" from the recent brouhaha about locked range packs replaced under warranty - Thank you to Jason's tweet skills for a MAJOR assist in getting that resolved.

But with my 2014 RWD that has a new 90 pack (very new from what Jason had said) - my usage is probably 95% road trip and 5% local. I JUST got back from a 12k mile trip that started off with my pack being restricted and then opened back up while I was in West Virginia with it. This was pretty much ALL supercharging, and all car camping (AC on all the time) for this trip. I wasn't charging above either 80 or 90% though except for a couple legs that there were some questions about SC availability - the middle of Missouri away from the highways, might as well say "Here There Be Dragons" and I noticed that the navigation started to obey my desires of stopping for a charge with around 15-20% rather than less. Temperatures outside were between the high 80s and 106 in Dallas.

So with all that.... What would be the preferred charging profile for best longevity? How much pack wear are we really talking about, if not trying to stuff power in via DC all the way to full?

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I thought that the superchargers were also being respectful of the pack, which is why people were complaining about reduced charge speeds? - I saw mine max out at 122kw a couple times, but only at the lower end of charge status and once reaching around 50% it would taper down pretty rapidly, to 60kw or less. For my camping purposes, I would stop at a supercharger with whatever ~20% and only charge up to maybe 50% for the night, leave the unit and go park / AC on / sleep.... then charge again in the morning to 80% for the next leg of the drive. LOTS (all) highway speeds and usually around 3-4 charges per day like that.

I'm not so much "daily" supercharging unless I'm on a trip, which IS kinda why I bought this car - for road trips. Thoughts? Am I beating the hell out of it or using it the most effectively?

The new pack is the 350V one?

 

[geordi]

Do you really have a choice? If that's your usage, then supercharging it is. I'd try to use destination chargers any time it made sense, but otherwise you do what you have to. I don't think anyone, except maybe Tesla, has any hard data on how "hard" Supercharging is on a pack, anyway.

Very true - on this trip, I had exactly two places where I could use a destination charger, and only one of those did I actually make use of it (hotel in the middle of nowhere Missouri, 60% of charge range from the nearest supercharger and 20 miles beyond my planned destination)

The other one that I didn't use was in the ONE hotel night I utilized during the entire trip (free hotel points) and a major metro area... So just supercharged when needed before leaving the area after work.

The new pack is the 350V one?

Yes, that is correct. I'd have to look at the sticker to tell you the specific revision, but it was installed this past May and was apparently new-car-smell new when installed. I'm somewhere around 17k miles on this pack since installation. I've owned it since Memorial Day and pretty much all of that usage has been road trip - It's already been to 3 of the 4 corners of the country (twice to the northeast) and 28 of the lower 48 states in just 4 months!

 

[AprilDelivery??]

Actually the 60 pack in his particular car had all cells populated, but these were different cell types than the 85s produced at the time (lower capacity).

The original pack also used metal module fins and other things.

The 75 kWh pack is actually lighter.

I had the 75kw battery a week ,first I was getting only 208 miles range like a 60kw battery because Tesla California limited me to 60kw until payments were cleared , it was paid a week ago , then I sent email to Tesla to open my battery pack to 75kw then now I'm getting 214-5 miles range. Whats the range on your 75kw battery?

 

[AprilDelivery??]

@markb1 - the part numbers/revisions for the 'missing cell' 60 packs are 1020422-00-A and 1020422-00-B (but need to look in our files to confirm the B revision, 'please hold while we check our records...')

that may (or may not) help you sleep better at night.

@wk057 may have the info on the second 'missing cell' revision as well

I had the 75kw battery a week ,first I was getting only 208 miles range like a 60kw battery because Tesla California limited me to 60kw until payments were cleared , it was paid a week ago , then I sent email to Tesla to open my battery pack to 75kw then now I'm getting 214-5 miles range. Whats the range on your 75kw battery?

 

[Adri]

I had the 75kw battery a week ,first I was getting only 208 miles range like a 60kw battery because Tesla California limited me to 60kw until payments were cleared , it was paid a week ago , then I sent email to Tesla to open my battery pack to 75kw then now I'm getting 214-5 miles range. Whats the range on your 75kw battery?

A brand new 75 Kw battery had a 100% range of 243-245 miles.

 

[Yurand]

Here is a thread on typical range numbers on single motor 75kWh cars: What's your S 75 range at 90%?
Seems like full range settles in the 220s for most cars after the degradation tapers off, but there are also people reporting around 215 like yours. My car with 110k miles is at 227.

 

[Olle]

A brand new 75 Kw battery had a 100% range of 243-245 miles.

That's correct for an original configuration MS 75.
The stated range of a transplant is the available capacity of the donor battery divided by the EPA rating's Wh/mile of the recipient car. For OP's vintage that means less range than a MS 75, since a pre facelift S RWD has a higher Wh/mile.

 

[Rocky_H]

A brand new 75 Kw battery had a 100% range of 243-245 miles.

You're quoting for a 75D, and the dual motor was a lot more efficient.

The stated range of a transplant is the available capacity of the donor battery divided by the EPA rating's Wh/mile of the recipient car. For OP's vintage that means less range than a MS 75, since a pre facelift S RWD has a higher Wh/mile.

Exactly. This is an old rear wheel drive 60 without the improved efficiency of the D. I would be expecting somewhere around 220-ish.

 

[ucmndd]

If we're splitting hairs the RWD 75 was 249 miles and the 75D was 259 miles when new.

 

[Olle]

Exactly. This is an old rear wheel drive 60 without the improved efficiency of the D. I would be expecting somewhere around 220-ish.

Not only is D(non P) more efficient than RWD, facelift (somewhere mid 2016 onward) is more efficient than the original S. These efficiencies multiply with each other.

 

[AprilDelivery??]

Actually the 60 pack in his particular car had all cells populated, but these were different cell types than the 85s produced at the time (lower capacity).

The original pack also used metal module fins and other things.

The 75 kWh pack is actually lighter.

This is the same case with me. Read below . There is a problem with the A/C hose that leaks into the battery pack and corrodes the fuse box and battery pack. This a defect in Tesla Model S 2013-4 models . I discussed this with Tesla before they replaced my battery and told them that this was happening while I was under warranty and they should replace it free because its a defect and a recall. Tesla knew this was happening to all Tesla Model S 2013-4 and did nothing. Thats why in 2019 when they had the Tesla Model S battery fire ,Tesla lowered the range on the Model S to less 10-20 miles. They sued them and settled lawsuit and I got a check $625 because it caught fire because of A/C leaking problem.
They said in the article that if you have this problem please contact them. I'm going to send them an email.
Probably all the 2013-4 Model S have this problem and Tesla is covering it up.
In the article , the person complained about this and Tesla stopped their Uber credits for people who Tesla gives when their car is in repair.
I think we all have a case and Tesla should replace the battery pack if it has corrosion and Tesla should refund my money I spent on they battery replacement.
Thats why Tesla service wouldn't let me see my battery pack when it was there for six weeks and wouldn't let me take a picture of the battery pack and it was covered up with a sheet. Because Tesla is covering up everything to avoid lawsuit.
What do you think wk057, Recell ?

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/tesla-model-s-owner-accuses-ev-maker-of-hiding-design-flaw-in-battery-packs-198780.html?

 

[BigNick]

Deliberately allowing water to drain onto a battery pack just seems dumb to me, IMO that hose should have been routed to the wheel well or something.

Not sure if avoiding water pooling in that area or ease of inspection/replacement was the driving factor behind moving the fuse cover to the bottom of the pack.

 

[MP3Mike]

I discussed this with Tesla before they replaced my battery and told them that this was happening while I was under warranty and they should replace it free because its a defect and a recall.

This is false, there is no recall for the A/C condensate drain.

Thats why in 2019 when they had the Tesla Model S battery fire ,Tesla lowered the range on the Model S to less 10-20 miles. They sued them and settled lawsuit and I got a check $625 because it caught fire because of A/C leaking problem.

Again, this is false. The lawsuit had nothing to do with fires. (The plaintiff, @DJRas, can confirm that fires were not a part of the suit.) The A/C condensate drain may have been partially to blame for what Tesla did there, but even packs without water intrusion have had the battery sense lead problem that Tesla made those temporary range changes for.

 

[AprilDelivery??]

Deliberately allowing water to drain onto a battery pack just seems dumb to me, IMO that hose should have been routed to the wheel well or something.

Not sure if avoiding water pooling in that area or ease of inspection/replacement was the driving factor behind moving the fuse cover to the bottom of the pack.

I saw on my car in the summer when the AC was on that there was a little puddle under the car probably because of the AC .

 

[AprilDelivery??]

This is false, there is no recall for the A/C condensate drain.



Again, this is false. The lawsuit had nothing to do with fires. (The plaintiff, @DJRas, can confirm that fires were not a part of the suit.) The A/C condensate drain may have been partially to blame for what Tesla did there, but even packs without water intrusion have had the battery sense lead problem that Tesla made those temporary range changes for.

Why wouldn't Tesla service let me look at the battery pack when it was in the shop? I couldn't take a picture of it? Because Tesla knows its a problem and don't want to recall all 2013-4 model S.