Tesla Service vs Traditional Manufacturers Service

[phil4]

Moderator comment - posts moved from VW ID3 configurator is live!! Which engine would you like with that?

The credit options also don’t seem to be very transparent as payment plans include a service plan which seems to me more of and indoctrination of the ice age

The dealers which are franchises make a massive chunk of their income from servicing. They will be desperate (and quite forceful in negotiating with the manufacturer) to ensure that that continues, and if that means bundling it in with the finance, all the better. And yes, they'll make it a requirement of the warranty, and yes, it's be mostly made up or really minor things.

Tesla is a disruptor, and does pretty much -everything- different, to the point of looking awkward/contrary... but the plus side is, it gets shot of rubbish like servicing that isn't really needed any more.

 

[Glan gluaisne]

The interesting thing will be to see which customer interface model wins, or if both get modified as a consequence of competition. The Tesla direct sales, no dealers, model seems pretty good, unless you need any work done on the car, when for people living miles away from the nearest SC it's a complete PITA arrangement. The dealership model gets around that, because many people will be a great deal closer to a VW dealer than they will to a Tesla SC. That then begs the question as to how to maintain a dealer network for cars that need very little servicing. Do VW adopt the Tesla model, and front load the price of the car to pay for SCs, do they find some other way to maintain their dealer network, such as by inflating service requirements, or do they do away with dealers and create their own SC network.

Only time will tell which option, or compromise, wins out. My money is on the conventional dealership model changing radically, but not becoming as hands-off as the Tesla model. The one aspect of Tesla ownership that bugs me more than anything else is having to take a whole day out in order to get to the nearest SC. It's such a PITA, that I've had to pay to get things like headlight alignment done, because although it was obviously a warranty problem, I'd rather cough up a few quid, rather than face the long trip to the SC.

 

[phil4]

I think they already have inflated the service requirements. I asked when looking a Honda e, and yes, annual 10K service required. Similar for VW ID3 and Polestar and Audi and the rest. Basically it's as the existing ICE, bring it back once a year for a service.

They'll then create a big long checklist to look like it's had lots of work done, send you a video of them looking under the car, pointing out tyre wear etc, and that'll be that.

The way they're doing it is maintaining the status quo.

Tesla's way works well, but the lack of SCs is where it doesn't work so we... the issue is they can't really franchise it as no service required.... so it's coming out of Tesla's own bottom line. I think they could improve things massively on that front by concentrating on getting PDI and initial quality up. Yes, issues will still come up, but it's a good start, and a good chunk then dealt with. Then open a few more SCs so you have better coverage, and it gets easier.

I'll be honest, I prefer this way than getting a bill for 3-500 every year for doing not a lot.

 

[rotor2k]

Couldn’t the Tesla model be resolved with a combination of a) a bunch of flat-bed trucks to collect and deliver the car from your house, and b) more mobile rangers?

 

[phil4]

Couldn’t the Tesla model be resolved with a combination of a) a bunch of flat-bed trucks to collect and deliver the car from your house, and b) more mobile rangers?

Yep, that too!

 

[browellm]

Polestar

Three years or 31,250 miles free servicing if required. Condition based servicing defaults to 30,000 for the first one.

Let's try to be accurate in reporting of other marques. Choice is good.

 

[phil4]

Three years or 31,250 miles free servicing if required. Condition based servicing defaults to 30,000 for the first one.

Let's try to be accurate in reporting of other marques. Choice is good.

So it still needs a service every year, it's just they pay for it (or rather you do, when you buy the car)?

 

[Glan gluaisne]

Seems a bit of an overkill to flat bed a car just because the latest software update has screwed up the headlight alignment, though. I'd guess that this wouldn't be something that a ranger could do, either.

When it comes to servicing costs, I really didn't begrudge paying between £140 and £220 a year to get my Toyota serviced. A bit like an EV, the servicing requirements were pretty low, and Toyota's servicing prices were a lot lower than those from BMW or Mercedes. The cheaper service was also pretty quick, a while-you-wait job usually, so no more than an hour or so. If Tesla had such a system I'd be happy enough with it.

 

[browellm]

So it still needs a service every year

Does it? I haven't said that it does and neither has Polestar in the documentation I have read. Do you have a link confirming otherwise?

I guess you have assumed "3 years free servicing" to mean it needs an annual service. I don't think that's true, but happy to be corrected.

 

[rotor2k]

Seems a bit of an overkill to flat bed a car just because the latest software update has screwed up the headlight alignment, though. I'd guess that this wouldn't be something that a ranger could do, either.

When it comes to servicing costs, I really didn't begrudge paying between £140 and £220 a year to get my Toyota serviced. A bit like an EV, the servicing requirements were pretty low, and Toyota's servicing prices were a lot lower than those from BMW or Mercedes. The cheaper service was also pretty quick, a while-you-wait job usually, so no more than an hour or so. If Tesla had such a system I'd be happy enough with it.

It’s just that maintaining a vast nationwide network of dealers seems enormously costly if it’s not needed. Maybe that service industry evolved as a separate business model over the years and the car manufacturers were happy to support its evolution.

If Tesla eventually goes bankrupt because everyone that is ever going to buy a Tesla has bought one, then that’s no good, so maybe that’s why the service model exists, to prop up a mature manufacturing base?

 

[Glan gluaisne]

What we might see is slimmed down, more cost-effective, service centres, perhaps. There are thousands of non-main dealer service centres that manage to stay in business without selling cars, and they do so by cutting their costs, so they can compete favourably with the sales-subsidised main dealers. EVs still need servicing and safety checks, so there is still a revenue stream for doing that work, it's just going to be a fair bit less work than servicing an ICE vehicle. ICE vehicle servicing has reduced dramatically over the years, though. My first car had grease points all over the place that needed attention at no more than 6 month intervals, and oil changes every 3,000 miles. My last ICE car only needed a proper service every two years, or 20,000 miles, the intermediate service was little more than a safety check. All EVs will do is reduce that servicing requirement a bit more, but there are still fluids, brakes, tyres, lights etc to check periodically.

 

[phil4]

Does it? I haven't said that it does and neither has Polestar in the documentation I have read. Do you have a link confirming otherwise?

I guess you have assumed "3 years free servicing" to mean it needs an annual service. I don't think that's true, but happy to be corrected.

They're very hazy, but I strongly think it suggest it does... They say it comes with "free, scheduled maintenance for the first three years of ownership, or 31,250 miles". note the word Scheduled. That's on their site: Car maintenance and repairs | Polestar UK

It could mean many things, but suggests servicing of a regular basis, whether that's 1 year, or 6 months or whatever.

Here they suggest there are no fixed intervals, but it's done on a time/distance basis (like a normal ICE): Polestar 2 running costs "intervals aren't specified, rather Polestar will contact you when your car needs maintenance. Servicing dates are figured out according to the car's running time and distance covered."

Which again sounds to me like it'll end up being something like 1 year or 10,000 miles - but might be 6 months or 15,000 miles... I don't know.

It's not concrete, but they'll have set the limit at 3 years or 31,000 miles for a reason... and they clearly expect a certain number of services in that period. It's been nicely obfuscated (BMW used to do this, with each part reporting when it needed replacing and in some instances meant a monthly visit to the service centre as each bit needed replacing). But it's also clear they're expecting you to service it... so perhaps we're both right to some extent.

 

[Glan gluaisne]

TBH, I'm a bit surprised that Tesla don't mandate at least an annual safety check. That's pretty much all the intermediate service was on the Prius, just a check of all the safety related stuff, like brakes, tyres, light, wipers etc, plus fluid level checks. It only needed things like the oil changing every second year, or 20,000 miles, so servicing was really dominated by much the same stuff as on an EV.

 

[browellm]

They're very hazy, but I strongly think it suggest it does... They say it comes with "free, scheduled maintenance for the first three years of ownership, or 31,250 miles". note the word Scheduled. That's on their site: Car maintenance and repairs | Polestar UK

It could mean many things, but suggests servicing of a regular basis, whether that's 1 year, or 6 months or whatever.

Here they suggest there are no fixed intervals, but it's done on a time/distance basis (like a normal ICE): Polestar 2 running costs "intervals aren't specified, rather Polestar will contact you when your car needs maintenance. Servicing dates are figured out according to the car's running time and distance covered."

Which again sounds to me like it'll end up being something like 1 year or 10,000 miles - but might be 6 months or 15,000 miles... I don't know.

It's not concrete, but they'll have set the limit at 3 years or 31,000 miles for a reason... and they clearly expect a certain number of services in that period. It's been nicely obfuscated (BMW used to do this, with each part reporting when it needed replacing and in some instances meant a monthly visit to the service centre as each bit needed replacing). But it's also clear they're expecting you to service it... so perhaps we're both right to some extent.

So please feel free to say if I'm misrepresenting you, but my takeaway from this is:
Tesla condition based servicing: Good
Anyone else's condition based servicing: Bad

OK, lol.

 

[Glan gluaisne]

Condition based servicing is absolutely fine for things that can have their condition checked regularly by some means. We used to operate aeroplanes using that servicing model, and it worked well, and was cost effective, mainly because every bit of the aeroplane was looked over closely after, and before, every sortie. There are safety related things on cars that cannot check themselves, and still need to be inspected periodically, and many drivers have seemingly lost the ability, or inclination, to do this sort of inspection and checking themselves.

My wife's a good example. 35 years ago I showed her how to DI her Fiesta, check all the fluid levels, visually inspect the tyres, wipers, lights etc, and for a time she'd do it, for that car, and a few subsequent cars. She's now completely lost that ability, though, primarily because cars have just got a great deal better at monitoring many things. It's down to me to check that her tyres, brakes, wipers, lights etc are OK, but if I wasn't around then she'd need to take the car in to get this stuff checked, at least once a year.

Until such time as we have systems that are as effective as the Mk 1 eyeball at checking safety-critical aspects of any car, there will remain a need for some sort of servicing/inspection. Given that safety critical things can go wrong within a year, I suggest that every car, no matter what it's motive power, really needs to have at least an annual check.

 

[phil4]

So please feel free to say if I'm misrepresenting you, but my takeaway from this is:
Tesla condition based servicing: Good
Anyone else's condition based servicing: Bad

OK, lol.

Don't worry, I'm really not trying to hold you to that/disagree with you... and you're right, if the above is the case... then I'm totally wrong. All I know is that the no servicing is "required" on my car, only recommended, and those things for the first few years are just rotating tyres, brake fluid, cabin filter. So not really condition based servicing... just recommended.

I'd love to know what the Polestar 2 actually works out as, I'm just very cynical and mistrusting of car manufacturers in general. If Tesla hadn't posted the above on their website, I'd have treated it the same way.

 

[Js1977]

My wife's a good example. 35 years ago I showed her how to DI her Fiesta, check all the fluid levels, visually inspect the tyres, wipers, lights etc, and for a time she'd do it, for that car, and a few subsequent cars. She's now completely lost that ability, though, primarily because cars have just got a great deal better at monitoring many things. It's down to me to check that her tyres, brakes, wipers, lights etc are OK, but if I wasn't around then she'd need to take the car in to get this stuff checked, at least once a year.

Until such time as we have systems that are as effective as the Mk 1 eyeball at checking safety-critical aspects of any car, there will remain a need for some sort of servicing/inspection. Given that safety critical things can go wrong within a year, I suggest that every car, no matter what it's motive power, really needs to have at least an annual check.

TBH, I'm a bit surprised that Tesla don't mandate at least an annual safety check. That's pretty much all the intermediate service was on the Prius, just a check of all the safety related stuff, like brakes, tyres, light, wipers etc, plus fluid level checks. It only needed things like the oil changing every second year, or 20,000 miles, so servicing was really dominated by much the same stuff as on an EV.

We already have annual safety checks mandated by the government by means of an MOT... a better debate would be classic cars where one is not mandated

The modern cars will tell you when a brake light etc is out and even tell you when you need to change your brake pads. If you dont know when your wipers need changing then to spec savers you go. These are all items that the dealers and allot of garages try to up sell as well as tyres and brake disks because not only they make profits on the parts but also it means more labour just like they will make profit on oil (many will accept you supply your own) but that also mean$ labour.

All these above is just their way of lining you up for what will eventually come like lambda sensors catalytic converters, dpf filters etc etc. not to mention other associated things like gaskets, radiators exhausts spark plugs etc.

Most complexities in ICE cars these days are with the systems they have as to keep emissions down and even special tools required to get into/fix some areas of the engine or ancillaries.


Cars haven't really got any better at monitoring systems. It won't tell you when your catalytic converter is on its way out/gone. It will just give you a bad reading/fault on one of the lambda sensors so you then have to test the lambda sensor and then work it out from there. Same for the dpf, allot of the time all you get is a lead to investigate (diagnostic charges that can involve changing other part before getting to the offending part).

I still have a diagnostic report that I paid just over £100 for from a ford main dealer for a faulty turbo (car sometimes went into limp mode, just over £1000 to fix) and i still have that original turbo here (had only done 24k miles on a 4 year old car) This, after I had an independent fit me one from the breakers (about £300 all in inc. £200 for the turbo). The car then spent a further 3-4 weeks at another main dealer because the fault persisted only to be diagnosed with a faulty wiring loom (that fixed it)

Another was my brothers car. Dealer diagnosed faulty dpf and after a after in excess of £2000 it turns out to be a cracked injector.

Im sorry to tell you but these state of the art diagnostic machines that only main dealers have are at times not better than a fruit machine. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose but not before sticking the coin in

 

[Glan gluaisne]

We already have annual safety checks mandated by the government by means of an MOT... a better debate would be classic cars where one is not mandated

Not for the first three years, though. Many people will have got through the first set of tyres in that time. There are people around, believe it or not, that don't have a clue about things like wipers, and wouldn't be able to tell by looking whether they needed replacing or not (several times I've noticed things like this when I've driven her car . . .).

 

[Js1977]

Not for the first three years, though. Many people will have got through the first set of tyres in that time. There are people around, believe it or not, that don't have a clue about things like wipers, and wouldn't be able to tell by looking whether they needed replacing or not (several times I've noticed things like this when I've driven her car . . .).

But that is true for every new vehicle on the road though bloke and so it has been way before Tesla or EV'sas we know it came along.

Taxis need to have an mot every 6 months regardless of age and every MOT (legal requirement) has the same disclaimer (roadworthiness). A service at any place has no such disclaimer since its not a legal requirement to have one done yet, they offer no more assurance/guarntee until the next service.

I get what you are trying to say but unfortunately there is nothing me or you can do for stupid, law of averages, people without self preservation or care for others.

Im sure you and me, amongst many others here will do just fine though

 

[KendoNagasaki]

I think they already have inflated the service requirements. I asked when looking a Honda e, and yes, annual 10K service required. Similar for VW ID3 and Polestar and Audi and the rest. Basically it's as the existing ICE, bring it back once a year for a service.

They'll then create a big long checklist to look like it's had lots of work done, send you a video of them looking under the car, pointing out tyre wear etc, and that'll be that.

The way they're doing it is maintaining the status quo.

Tesla's way works well, but the lack of SCs is where it doesn't work so we... the issue is they can't really franchise it as no service required.... so it's coming out of Tesla's own bottom line. I think they could improve things massively on that front by concentrating on getting PDI and initial quality up. Yes, issues will still come up, but it's a good start, and a good chunk then dealt with. Then open a few more SCs so you have better coverage, and it gets easier.

I'll be honest, I prefer this way than getting a bill for 3-500 every year for doing not a lot.

Every year for three years, Renault Finance made me bring my Zoe in for a dealer service. Every time, the booking agent asked me if I wanted an optional oil filter change.
Now the PCP is done, I’ll check the brakes and tyres but it’s never seeing a dealer again