Tesla tech is great, but other companies are starting to push

[AmpedRealtor]

This is not a troll post, but I am starting to get worried. My drivetrain is amazing, but the new tech features that are often teased are not being delivered. I got a chance to see the interior and software on the newest BMW M5. The car loaded is less than $120k, still not cheap, but for a 600+hp AWD gas guzzler, it has amazing tech! I know Tesla loves minimalist, whilst charging maximalist, but we need to see the gap close on interiors and tech.

My friend pulls up his car on his phone and can look around it where parked. Very cool!! I do not need that feature, but other than "Autopilot", being electric and turning on my AC remotely, I lose in almost every tech category. A loaded model S is $30k more money, without still much needed, blind spot monitor, top view cameras, HUD and some type of decent phone/media interface. Thoughts...

We will all be driving Tesla Toast when Porsche, Mercedes, and the rest get into the game. Porsche is a year away. Jaguar is already here with the iPace and tech/features (the kind people actually use) that put the Model X to shame, as does the interior. Tesla is in for some major hurt when the big players come. Tesla can't plan well enough ahead for this threat, they are constantly scrambling.

 

[thegruf]

We will all be driving Tesla Toast when Porsche, Mercedes, and the rest get into the game ...

various disparaging answers to that post come to mind, I'll settle for:

Wrong

 

[Peteski]

We will all be driving Tesla Toast when Porsche, Mercedes, and the rest get into the game. Porsche is a year away. Jaguar is already here with the iPace and tech/features (the kind people actually use) that put the Model X to shame, as does the interior. Tesla is in for some major hurt when the big players come. Tesla can't plan well enough ahead for this threat, they are constantly scrambling.

We hear this argument every year and yet Tesla continue to lead the way in EV tech. I sat in an iPace recently at a show and was totally underwhelmed. It's great that something else actually exists in theory to compete directly against Tesla, but if I ordered one today I'd probably see it in mid 2019. I can't even order a Porsche Taycan today.

 

[Canuck]

A loaded model S is $30k more money, without still much needed, blind spot monitor, top view cameras, HUD and some type of decent phone/media interface. Thoughts...

My thoughts are only: You won't get me in the door of any other long range EV maker until they have banks of maintained fast chargers comparable to Tesla's supercharger network. Until then, while I like the things you mention, and some I would really want, none of them come even close to outweighing the advantage Tesla's supercharger network gives us. So even with everything you mention, if it comes in a vehicle that I have to reply on public chargers to go anywhere outside of my home town, it's basically a useless vehicle to me since I have the Tesla option. And I've done travelling before there was one supercharger in Canada and relying on public chargers to get you anywhere is not something I will ever go through again. So I have no interest in it at all, and that's a shame because we need real competition for Tesla - but for me it's only real competition when we compare apples to apples and not to oranges, which everything else is until they have a comparable fast charging network, which likely won't be anytime soon.

 

[scaesare]

. Jaguar is already here with the iPace and tech/features (the kind people actually use) that put the Model X to shame.

That people actually use? You mean like Supercharging?

 

[whitex]

You are missing the point I'm making.... there are a number of people for whom these baubles and gizmos seem more important than things like range, fast charging network availability, charge rate, energy efficiency, etc...

If that's you, then fine. Everybody has their priorities... I just find them strange when almost the entire point of a BEV is to provide a completely different method of fueling and propelling personal transportation than has been the norm for 100 years.

I'd personally love to have some rear cupholders and NAV waypoints on my S. But I wouldn't trade being able to drive 250+ miles on a charge and access to the supercharging network to get them...

To different people different things are important. There are people who say they need 500 miles of range before they'll even consider an EV. To you range maybe be more important than EAB, other happily give up 50 miles of range for a car that would stop like Subaru's EAB system. It seems range is very high on your list of priorities, but obviously not the highest as your sig says you bought pano roof, which adds weight and therefore reduce range, however slightly. Different people, different needs.

You also missed my point. I wasn't saying Tesla was wasting their time working on range, that is their unique (at this time) value add. I was saying they were wasting their time doing camera based rain detection when they could have bought a sensor for $5 (as they did for pre AP2 cars), or camera based auto-headlights (which took a year to implement), or ultrasonic blind spot detection (which doesn't work except for the @jeffro01 who got the one car which never missed a single car in the blind spot) while they could have bought a proven radar based system. Their AP for the masses is also a waste, had they stayed with latest generation Mobile Eye they would have been way ahead in functionality right now - there is no value add when you are developing something you can buy (and cheaper too). All that effort could have been spent on things which are important to enough people that other manufacturers bother to offer them to attract buyers.

 

[scaesare]

To different people different things are important. There are people who say they need 500 miles of range before they'll even consider an EV. To you range maybe be more important than EAB, other happily give up 50 miles of range for a car that would stop like Subaru's EAB system. It seems range is very high on your list of priorities, but obviously not the highest as your sig says you bought pano roof, which adds weight and therefore reduce range, however slightly. Different people, different needs.

You also missed my point. I wasn't saying Tesla was wasting their time working on range, that is their unique (at this time) value add. I was saying they were wasting their time doing camera based rain detection when they could have bought a sensor for $5 (as they did for pre AP2 cars), or camera based auto-headlights (which took a year to implement), or ultrasonic blind spot detection (which doesn't work except for the @jeffro01 who got the one car which never missed a single car in the blind spot) while they could have bought a proven radar based system. Their AP for the masses is also a waste, had they stayed with latest generation Mobile Eye they would have been way ahead in functionality right now - there is no value add when you are developing something you can buy (and cheaper too). All that effort could have been spent on things which are important to enough people that other manufacturers bother to offer them to attract buyers.

What you see as a waste of time in order to implement the status quo, I take as building the foundation for additional capability outside the traditional "automaker" box.

Why did Tesla waste their time developing over the air updates and Supercharger infrastructure for their cars when they could have saved the time and money and relied on tried-and-true dealer firmware updates and 3rd party charging solutions? Why that big expensive touchscreen instead of an inexpensive set of plastic knobs and buttons?

Because they are working to disrupt the status quo and change the game. IS everything a hit? No... but they iterate and improve so rapidly that they nail it down...

 

[HeinrichJ729]

I feel everyone else is 4-6 years behind Tesla.

I know a new crop of EVs are coming out but I have a feeling Tesla has something very special planned for the Model S on the horizon. Then everyone will again be 4-6 years behind Tesla.

 

[malcolm]

. Tesla is in for some major hurt when the big players come. Tesla can't plan well enough ahead for this threat, they are constantly scrambling.

But this constant response of "Tesla can't possibly achieve X" is symptomatic of the complacency of the traditional automakers.

The dealership network is another great metaphor for their inertia.

They also choose/prefer to see scrambles instead of plans:

Tesla makes Gigafactory 3 in China official, plans to start production in 2 years

 

[Canuck]

To different people different things are important.

Yes, of course. But a car that can't really go anywhere without relying on public chargers is like a chicken that doesn't lay eggs, or perhaps takes a long time to lay one egg, is a better analogy. Yes, you can do other things with a chicken, or wait for the eggs, and that's fine. But most people need the eggs, and don't like waiting for them when you're hungry (or on an EV trip travelling with no superchargers). And the people who thinks eggs are not important, because "different things are important", mostly think that way, in my view, because they've never eaten an egg (supercharged) and not because they don't like eggs. You really need to travel without superchargers, relying on PlugShare, then with superchargers, relying on Tesla's built in Nav that takes you to them on your travels, and tells you how long to charge to get you on your way (and I always do at least 10% more).

Of course, there's the rare people who never go beyond the range of a long range EV but those are the few exceptions, not the rule, at least in my view. If other EV makers are marketing to them, that seems like a good way to sell very few vehicles, and by looking at the stats that seems to be the case.

 

[whitex]

What you see as a waste of time in order to implement the status quo, I take as building the foundation for additional capability outside the traditional "automaker" box.

Why did Tesla waste their time developing over the air updates and Supercharger infrastructure for their cars when they could have saved the time and money and relied on tried-and-true dealer firmware updates and 3rd party charging solutions? Why that big expensive touchscreen instead of an inexpensive set of plastic knobs and buttons?

Because they are working to disrupt the status quo and change the game. IS everything a hit? No... but they iterate and improve so rapidly that they nail it down...

Did you even read my response? Why are you implying Tesla wasted their time developing supercharger infrastructure? I said they wasted their time with things already solved, like rain sensor, auto-headlights, BSM - things which already had proven and affordable solutions. There was no proven supercharger network Tesla could have used, hence they developed it. On the other hand, creating an ultrasonic BSM which doesn't work reliably was a complete waste of time. Or do you see the ultrasonic parking sensor based BSM as an important automotive foundation?

 

[whitex]

Yes, of course. But a car that can't really go anywhere without relying on public chargers is like a chicken that doesn't lay eggs, or perhaps takes a long time to lay one egg, is a better analogy. Yes, you can do other things with a chicken, or wait for the eggs, and that's fine. But most people need the eggs, and don't like waiting for them when you're hungry (or on an EV trip travelling with no superchargers). And the people who thinks eggs are not important, because "different things are important", mostly think that way, in my view, because they've never eaten an egg (supercharged) and not because they don't like eggs. You really need to travel without superchargers, relying on PlugShare, then with superchargers, relying on Tesla's built in Nav that takes you to them on your travels, and tells you how long to charge to get you on your way (and I always do at least 10% more).

Of course, there's the rare people who never go beyond the range of a long range EV but those are the few exceptions, not the rule, at least in my view. If other EV makers are marketing to them, that seems like a good way to sell very few vehicles, and by looking at the stats that seems to be the case.

I think you read @scaesare responses and took his implication that I was saying developing superchargers was a waste. It was not, it was a value add for Tesla and an enabler. If Tesla decided to build their own power grid rather than connecting to an existing one, that would be a waste of time (unless of course the current grid could not power superchargers). Things like developing a parking sensor based BSM which doesn't work when wind blows was a waste of time as there are existing, proven, radar based solutions available on the market already.

 

[thegruf]

@whitex - i sort of agree with some of what you are saying about trying to reinvent stuff that already works.

On balance though Tesla exists by being disruptive, to be disruptive you have to expect some efforts to be more successful than others.

If Tesla lose the flair to challenge aboslutely everything automotive, they will quickly become an also-ran which is not what they need to continue to succeed.

 

[whitex]

@whitex - i sort of agree with some of what you are saying about trying to reinvent stuff that already works.

On balance though Tesla exists by being disruptive, to be disruptive you have to expect some efforts to be more successful than others.

If Tesla lose the flair to challenge aboslutely everything automotive, they will quickly become an also-ran which is not what they need to continue to succeed.

Even Elon has limited resources, therefore it makes business sense to work on things to which you can really add value and focus so you don't spread yourself too thin. You don't have to re-invent everything from scratch in order to be disruptive.

What's next, Elon will start using the Boring company to start mines for metal ores, so he can start his own metal production and lithium battery production from scratch? Then mine his own silicon and create a fab to make his own chips? Start his own farms so he can feed the factory workers? Wait, I think I know what you're going to say - all this is actually required for his master plan of single-handily colonizing Mars without having to rely on anyone else's technology (though one could argue patent violations on Mars don't exist since it's a whole new jurisdiction, so Elon-world could simply not recognize Earth patents).

 

[Canuck]

On balance though Tesla exists by being disruptive, to be disruptive you have to expect some efforts to be more successful than others.

Tesla came into existence by being disruptive but to survive long-term they need to conform, at least in my view, and that includes to start offering some of the goodies the OP mentioned, or they will fall behind, once everyone has a fast charging network -- and they will eventually have them -- the question is only "when?".

In my view, Tesla will also do better conforming to the new auto industry than continuing to disrupt it. Disruption gets the fringe people, and got the ball rolling, much like what happened with Apple, but when you want to go big time, you conform to get the masses. That's what Apple did and it's quite ironic watching their 1984 Superbowl commercial in present day when they presented IBM as the conformer and they were the disruptor. Now they are an even bigger conformer than IBM. That's were Tesla is likely headed, in my view, if history is any example, since conformity pays off -- at least financially.

 

[scaesare]

Did you even read my response? Why are you implying Tesla wasted their time developing supercharger infrastructure? I said they wasted their time with things already solved, like rain sensor, auto-headlights, BSM - things which already had proven and affordable solutions. There was no proven supercharger network Tesla could have used, hence they developed it. On the other hand, creating an ultrasonic BSM which doesn't work reliably was a complete waste of time. Or do you see the ultrasonic parking sensor based BSM as an important automotive foundation?

It was an analogy. They aren't necessarily doing things the same way traditional automakers do because they may have different goals.

An off the shelf rain or headlight sensor likely has very specific and somewhat limited function. Using a forward-view camera fed in to an imminently programmable neural-network based vision sensor might lead to all sorts of interesting things:

1) The ability to update the algorithm over the air for future functionality change

2) The ability to detect rain vs. snow and react accordingly

3) Recognize fog, and work in conjunction with the light sensor and headlight detection algoritms to implement smart lo-beam/foglight control.

4) etc...

Rinse and repeat for a light sensor, or many other aspects of the car... including actual performance specs. My car does things 5 years later that it wasn't capable of say 1. And I don't even have the sensor suite and associated compute power in mine...

So, have there been growing pains? Yup. But does it allow configurability/functionality not possible in other platforms? Also yes.

 

[ajones13]

I don't really get this thread. Maybe it's just me but my model s interior is by far the nicest interior i've ever experienced. It feels like it was tailor made for my needs. And anyone i've ever showed the car too has absolutely marveled at the tech inside. To each their own I suppose

 

[Canuck]

I don't really get this thread. Maybe it's just me but my model s interior is by far the nicest interior i've ever experienced. It feels like it was tailor made for my needs. And anyone i've ever showed the car too has absolutely marveled at the tech inside. To each their own I suppose

Yes, me too. But wouldn't you like to also:

My friend pulls up his car on his phone and can look around it where parked. Very cool!!

Of all the cameras on my 3, I can't look through any one of them on my phone. Plus, no bird's eye view. It wouldn't take much for Tesla to give us these things, and a bunch of other things too. Plus, my over 4 year old S doesn't look much different inside than a new one. But why would Tesla change much when no one is breathing down their back and they can pretty much sell every vehicle made?

We really need competition for Tesla to make all EVs better but unfortunately that will likely take others to build fast charger networks and none seem really interested unless forced to because of regulation or dieselgate. I know their defenders will likely chime in and say they are building them, or they are out there, but I need a web page like Tesla supercharger map to compare to and it will take years until we see a comparable one, at least in my view. So Tesla has me by the you know what until then -- since Tesla has the market cornered, which is not good when it comes to the consumer wanting more for less.

 

[whitex]

I don't really get this thread. Maybe it's just me but my model s interior is by far the nicest interior i've ever experienced. It feels like it was tailor made for my needs. And anyone i've ever showed the car too has absolutely marveled at the tech inside. To each their own I suppose

What were your last 3 cars?

 

[whitex]

Rinse and repeat for a light sensor, or many other aspects of the car... including actual performance specs. My car does things 5 years later that it wasn't capable of say 1. And I don't even have the sensor suite and associated compute power in mine...

What does your car do today that it didn't do 4 years ago? Do other $100K cars from 5 years ago do that too (and likely have been able to do since they were new)?