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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

tinyrodent

Member
Apr 25, 2019
132
1,890
Ottawa Ontario
Texas factory update - crane moved to north end of foundation, and first columns erected. Seems like just a test? Doesn't look like they are ready to scale up yet. I'm a little disappointed to see small metal components, instead of the large precast concrete components used in Berlin.
image.png

Meanwhile at the south end, preparations continue for a large pour.
image.png

The full video is pretty long, 2x speed and mute recommended.
 

[email protected]

Supporting Member
Sep 30, 2014
73
136
United States
Yeah, I don't see that happening. The first problem is child safety seats. What do you do with them when you go to the mall? You pack them with you? :rolleyes: Or do you have to essentially rent the car to keep it during all your trips? (Parents aren't going to want to deal with installing and uninstalling child safety seats constantly.)

There are also things I like to keep in the car so that they are nearby when necessary, but not have to pack them around.

tl;dr I won't be one of the people giving up my personal vehicles. Some people might, or they might just give up a second vehicle, but it isn't going to be an 80% reduction in personal vehicles.

Tony Seba has his opinion, and everyone else on this thread is entitled to theirs. A slightly peripheral point: I use my ancient 2016 X autopilot a lot on the freeway. Many times while doing so, I have been startled to realize pretty much everything I have thought about a car: fashion statement; status symbol; speed; competitive position in the traffic....all of that stuff embedded in owning the vehicle, vanished. I think the reason why is that my focus, for better or worse, is on my email or a text conversation or...stated another way, I think that the transition from drivers to passenger in autonomous vehicles is going to be a really big deal...and maybe a step change. I am a general aviation pilot, and there is some of that in going from hand flying the plane to pushing buttons and letting the autopilot fly heading and altitude and speed. Once that becomes the norm for auto travel, Seba's "80 percent disruption in 10 years" is a reality, in my view. In other words, if it was just less expensive, we would not have "what is the matter with Kansas" issues. But if it is a qualitative improvement in the travel experience, done deal. And if the autopilot beta works....? MTCents J
 

dkemme

Supporting Member
Apr 3, 2016
325
806
Greeley, CO
Just read this comment on twitter:



The delusion in people is strong. I dont think GM will be in bsuiness in 2025, so the idea that they even have an R&D budget in 2024 is pretty optimistic if you ask me.
People really are like rabbits in ICE headlights, staring at the total collapse of the global fossil fuel industry under full glare, pretending it is not happening. I am sick of trying to point out the stunningly obvious. Just happy to take those peoples lifes savings and make them my own. *sigh*.

Oh, the sad part is their R&D budget has been so misspent over the past few years, maybe last few decades...

GM and Tesla Research and Development (R&D) Spending Comparison


"As seen from the chart above, GM spent quite consistently on R&D, averaging around $7.4 billion per year over the past 7 years. On the other hand, Tesla’s spending on R&D had been steadily increasing during the same period and reached record high at $1.5 billion in 2018 before declining slightly to $1.3 billion in 2019."
 

dkemme

Supporting Member
Apr 3, 2016
325
806
Greeley, CO
Yeah, I don't see that happening. The first problem is child safety seats. What do you do with them when you go to the mall? You pack them with you? :rolleyes: Or do you have to essentially rent the car to keep it during all your trips? (Parents aren't going to want to deal with installing and uninstalling child safety seats constantly.)

There are also things I like to keep in the car so that they are nearby when necessary, but not have to pack them around.

tl;dr I won't be one of the people giving up my personal vehicles. Some people might, or they might just give up a second vehicle, but it isn't going to be an 80% reduction in personal vehicles.
Tony estimates the average savings per family of four equals the yearly cost of groceries per year. This will happen...
 

Fred42

Member
Dec 24, 2018
887
2,488
Pennsylvania
In addition I've only ever seen cars with the new protective wrap charging at the new Supercharger station.

If we speculate that this is a CCS/2 charging station, that makes sense..

Continuing my speculation on possible rail shipping.

Yiwu–London railway line - Wikipedia

From Yiwu, a trading center 300 km south of Shanghai, the track passes through 9 countries: China, Kazakhstan, Russia, Belarus, Poland, Germany, Belgium, France, UK. In order to get to the UK the route passes through the Channel Tunnel between France and the UK. The London end of the line is located at the DB Eurohub in Barking, East London.[4]

Despite the need to go through Bogie exchange, the trip takes only 18 days to complete. In comparison, it takes a large cargo vessel about 30–45 days of sailing to get from East Asia to Northern Europe.[1]




If they where shipping cars to Europe by rail, 20-30 days from factory to delivery centre seems adequate..

Sometimes this type of speculation seems to make sense but can still be wrong.

But assuming it is right, having some of these cars in Europe by around Mid-November seems possible.
So rail from Shanghai to Europe is faster then ship, but that leaves the question of cost.
 

Mo City

Active Member
Jul 17, 2016
1,792
10,564
near Houston
Oh, the sad part is their R&D budget has been so misspent over the past few years, maybe last few decades...

GM and Tesla Research and Development (R&D) Spending Comparison


"As seen from the chart above, GM spent quite consistently on R&D, averaging around $7.4 billion per year over the past 7 years. On the other hand, Tesla’s spending on R&D had been steadily increasing during the same period and reached record high at $1.5 billion in 2018 before declining slightly to $1.3 billion in 2019."
$7.4 billion per year for the last 7 years? If true, what a tragic failure of leadership by Mary Barra. She can blather all she wants about GM's "all electric future" but she's completely blown their wad and has no credibility.

How can they have spent 5x more on R&D than Tesla over the last 7 years and not have a lot more to show for it by now?

I've been hesitant to put GM in the same category with Ford but maybe they belong there.
 

Beltsbear

Member
Jan 1, 2016
884
5,010
Dc
The current lithium Ion batteries in Teslas are good for ~300,000-400,000 miles...LiPo should be good for at least 3x that many miles (indeed that's what the "million mile" batteries CATL is hawking are based on)
People don’t want cars with 500,000 mile exteriors and interiors was my point even if the car still works. Car sales will go down some, but not that much because cars last longer.
 

bpjod

Supporting Member
Nov 5, 2016
424
1,792
Alberta, Canada
There are many cases where people will want to keep a vehicle. Car seats might be one. Even if the car seat issue can be solved, say the seats integrated into the rear seat much like the armrest/cupholder is, kids still spill ice cream and Cheerios everywhere and I want to keep a bag of emergency kid supplies in my vehicle. Personally, I'd like to spend a few years towing my RV around with my Cybertruck once the kids move out. There's another case where vehicle ownership makes sense. I like to go cross-country skiing, mountain biking and the like. I want to leave my vehicle at the trailhead so it's there (and pre-warmed) when I get back. I don't want to wait 20 minutes in my sweaty, lightweight ski outfit in -15C weather for a car to arrive. Hypothermia will come first. And I wouldn't dare toss my mud encased bike into someone else's vehicle. Given a few more minutes, I'm sure I could come up with a half dozen other reasons I will want to keep a vehicle for a few more years even after Transportation as a Service (TaaS) becomes widely available.

However, we currently have 3 vehicles, along with their associated costs and not enough space to park them all. The Tesla Model 3 is the primary vehicle. The Volt is the secondary vehicle for my wife and I and the main vehicle for my 18yo son. The Highlander does towing duties, big load duties and is the tertiary vehicle when the other two are in use. I could totally see just owning a Cybertruck for personal use and using TaaS to get rid of the other 2 vehicles. I suspect by then I'll consider putting my Model 3 in the Tesla TaaS fleet to make a few dollars, or else sell it to one of my kids.

Now, consider that a great many who can relatively easily afford vehicles and currently have two or more for their households may also make similar choices. Then consider that those for whom vehicle ownership consumes a considerable portion of their discretionary spending and only requires one for commuting to/from work, shopping runs and couple weekend getaways per year. Selling the car and using TaaS will be a very liberating experience for them.

I'm convinced private ownership numbers will plummet steadily once TaaS becomes widespread. But they won't get to zero.
 

Bet TSLA

Active Member
Dec 8, 2014
2,807
10,249
Cupertino, CA
He also thinks in that video that peaker power plants will be obsolete by 2020 (which is now, and he's wrong- there's still like 1000 of em active in the US alone
They are obsolete. Nobody is building fossil fuel based peaker plants any more. Well, perhaps a few are just finishing construction, ordered up when it still wasn't quite obviously moronic.
 

MC3OZ

Active Member
Jul 25, 2019
2,033
10,906
QLD Australia
So rail from Shanghai to Europe is faster then ship, but that leaves the question of cost.

We don't know the answer on cost and there is still time for a ship to make the trip even assuming 30-45 days.

But in a completely enclosed RORO or in shipping containers, I am not sure if cars are exposed to the elements and need the extra protective wrapping.
 

insaneoctane

Active Member
Apr 6, 2016
3,369
5,185
Southern California
Will 80 million cars still be sold annually by 2030? I’m no expert. But if used Teslas are gonna last >500,000 miles, and robotaxis are a thing in 2025...then my instinct says the annual global auto sales drops considerably. Has anyone modeled this? I’d be interested to see what the EV adoption curve does to the global auto sales curve.
Yes, but some TM3 owners who have only had their car around 1 year already want the new refreshed 2021s too!
 

MC3OZ

Active Member
Jul 25, 2019
2,033
10,906
QLD Australia
FWIW a lot of people overstate just how quickly that transition happened... often with the famous "parade in NYC" pictures showing on a decade or so from "only 1 car in the parade" to "majority cars in the parade"

This ignores a ton of relevant data... like the fact 20 years later horses still numbered in the tens of thousands in NYC, and that OUTSIDE of dense urban cities horses remain the majority for ~30 years past the "mostly cars" parade picture.

(and that hell, in many underdeveloped places, horses are STILL actively and commonly used for transport)






He also thinks in that video that peaker power plants will be obsolete by 2020 (which is now, and he's wrong- there's still like 1000 of em active in the US alone-- for the same reason he's wrong ICE will be replaced by EVs by 2025- it is literally impossible to produce enough batteries to make either prediction true)

He also uses the same, flawed, NYC example I just discussed.


His general conclusions are spot on- some of his timelines are.... very overly optimistic.

Tony uses the example of the transition from the horse to the car as that is the best example we have.
But if we think about it cars needed, roads, gas stations, parking lots, mechanics, oil refineries, etc.
Not surprisingly the car infrastructure was easier to ramp in the cities...

In contrast horses ate grass and there was plenty of cheap or free grass in the countryside.
While fuel was cheap, horses were limited in range and comfort, reliability could be suspect and maintenance was expensive.

EVs can use the same roads and parking lots, aside from the need for more charging stops EVs are not limited in range, comfort is equal or superior, infrastructure still takes time but can be way faster, home fuel is an option.

EV reliability will be higher, maintenance costs are lower, fuel costs are lower, once they reach purchase price parity from a point of view of TCO EVs come out way ahead. Regardless, of supply, the point when the majority of the population understand this point more or less settles demand.

Overall the big economic question is not so much how many cars of each type are owned but how many miles are driven, It will not take much to tank new ICE car sales, and substantially reduce miles driven.

High mileage cars like taxis and hire cars will be early adopters, because the savings are more substantial, TaaS is an additional factor. All 3 combining to increase awareness. I'm sure statistics will show newer cars typically drive more miles than older cars, most families take their newest car on a long trip.

Sure in the country side some who cant afford an EV, even a 2nd hand EV, can't charge at home, don't have solar and will keep the old ICE running a bit longer than a city dweller who can just elect to use TaaS. Fewer people live in the countryside, the real question is if the locals plus any ICE driving visitors are sufficient to keep the local gas station open.

Battery Day had some of the answers on battery supplies and the threats to peaker plants are multipronged, there are a number of competitive generation and storage technologies.

But overall I agree Tony is like Elon, his conclusions are spot on, but his timelines can be optimistic, in the long run conclusions matter more than the timelines, there are ways of speeding up the timelines.

Sometimes a timeline acceleration happens because a disrupted technology reaches a point where it becomes unviable and collapses early. Those early collapses can be sudden and hard to predict, one week the doors don't open on Monday, the bank will not extend a loan, or they have to close the factory because products are not selling.

Sure a handful of old cars can keep running long after the factory closes.... may they get parts from wrecked vehicles, maybe some parts are custom made, but this isn't the mainstream.
 

dc_h

Active Member
Feb 14, 2015
3,471
12,974
Naperville, IL
Oh, the sad part is their R&D budget has been so misspent over the past few years, maybe last few decades...

GM and Tesla Research and Development (R&D) Spending Comparison


"As seen from the chart above, GM spent quite consistently on R&D, averaging around $7.4 billion per year over the past 7 years. On the other hand, Tesla’s spending on R&D had been steadily increasing during the same period and reached record high at $1.5 billion in 2018 before declining slightly to $1.3 billion in 2019."
Tough job eliminating 90% of your transmission, engine and general ICE engineering and replacing with a streamlined battery and motor development team. Innovators paradox is real. Most of GM leadership would have worked up through those tech stacks and would fight eliminating them. Tesla can focus motor development across every car, maybe tweaking across cars, but all aligned to one goal. Same for batteries and FSD. EV engineering is much more common to all platforms and will help drive faster innovation as EVs scale up and will be much cheaper to support across 10 million cars for any EV producer then an ICE manufacturer. Poor GM spending dead money on transmission development and spending that across brands and car types.
 

ggr

Expert in Dunning-Kruger Effect!
Mar 24, 2011
6,972
27,477
San Diego, CA
Semi-mod: No more politics. It's getting to the point that we might have to start deleting even posts about the effect of the election on the market, because people seem unable to resist partisan replies. And, by the way, no more beer either; you're making work for the moderators handling complaints. It was already old weeks ago. --ggr.
 
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StealthP3D

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2018
8,629
63,248
Maple Falls, WA
Although not stated, the year of the surgeries is likely 2019 when the scar was first noticed. His tweets seen below should clarify the situation, and calm the rumors spread after people became concerned about the scar on his neck.

Dang! I was hoping the aliens had come down and implanted a direct link to Elon's brain! That would have explained a lot.

Or maybe he's just covering it up by claiming mundane surgery. :)
 

StealthP3D

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2018
8,629
63,248
Maple Falls, WA
In recent years annual new car sales are north of 80 million a year.

Leaving over 50 million new ICE vehicles a year, 10 years from now, someone will still need to be producing.

Actually no. Autos are durable goods and most buyers are cash constrained. This means as EV's displace ICE, ICE sales will take a huge hit as buyers will be reluctant to take out a loan for an ICE car. Also, at some point the industry will realize the residual values (after the term of the loan) are dropping like a rock. This will make loans (and leases) for ICE more expensive and harder to get and cause potential car buyers to delay purchase or buy a decent used car to hold them over until they can get an EV. Meanwhile, the EV's that have been produced over the years will be building up faster than typical due to fewer accidents/fires and better longevity of EV's. These changes are just the tip of the iceberg. Total new car sales will fall off a cliff.

They don't call it "disruption" for nothing!
 

mrdoubleb

Supporting Member
Jul 2, 2013
2,547
13,364
Budapest, Hungary
So on the subject of shipping cars from Shanghai to Europe... The Model 3 is still inexplicably expensive over here. The SR+ starts at 40.000 EUR net (so before VAT/sales tax or any state incentives) which is about 47.000 USD. That is 9k more expensive than in the US. Sure, the EU has a 10% tariff on US cars and there is some transportation cost as well, but still it is much.more expensive than in the States.

So if they can decrease the SR+ price because of Chinese LFP batteries and Shanghai production costs - assuming tariffs and transportation stays the same - it would really boost sales.
 

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