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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

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Why put so much emphasis on after hours trading which the vast majority of the time means nothing and ignore the trading throughout the day?

We saw an intraday consolation with stronger volume coming in at the end of the day leading to a high close. Sure Monday could be a sell off...but the trading action on Friday indicated the rally isn’t over

To add on to this, I think there’s genuine uncertainty about what Tesla is going to announce for 2021 guidance, for both investors thinking of selling and those thinking of buying.

800k guidance, maybe a bit of a sell off
850-950k guidance, probably keep these levels or move a bit higher
950k + guidance, I think we rally decently higher
 
Not how I see it with call options because there's a time limit attached to it. You are not betting that Tesla wouldn't be a multi-trillion dollar company one day, you are betting that it wouldn't be x price by x date. You are HOPING for some free premiums as you wait until Tesla become multi-trillion. But hey if there's a short squeeze there's a short squeeze. But no one is betting on a short squeeze, just the fundamentals of the company.

Regardless of semantics (as for example is "missing out on a gain in stock price" the same as "taking a loss") selling a covered call is a somewhat bearish bet, but not the same as its "mirror bet" namely buying a put. The difference of course being as you point out that when selling a call the time decay works in your favor ("free premiums" as you call it) whereas it works in your disfavor when you buy a put (or when you buy a call for that matter). But we can't forget that selling calls is basically a bearish bet. And there's no such thing as a free lunch - if the stock rallies you will lose money (be worse off) having sold a covered call than if you just held the stock.
 
....
2019 estimate of worldwide light vehicles [ cars, busses and trucks] was slightly over one billion. If the typical yearly replacement rate remains at roughly 1% as it is now, it would require only 10,000,000 p.a. to replace ~ 15% of the present fleet and that would only happen if BEV's would never need replacement themselves.

The energy market is even more dramatic, but the automotive does the job nicely.

In short if disruption does happen in any substantial way, say 40%, and replacement of BEV happens too, as it does, the decade ending in 2030 would have had topical annual of BEV's around 40,000,000. Since annual production today, year one, is an absurdly low percentage fo that the growth rate would need to be Elon's "exponential".

For energy, I'll skip the numbers. They're even more insane. Even only replacing peaked plants worldwide would need exponential growth. .....
These markets will allow exponential growth into the 2040's if all goes smoothly.......
We would go far off topic for this forum. Here we only need realize that exponential growth for the foreseeable future is very plausible.......
Tesla is clearly undervalued by a magnitude. Nobody in the securities industry has even the faintest clue that this is happening.

This is exactly the topic for the numbers to be discussed.

TSLA is currently priced to 'grow-into' a valuation based on 2025/26 production (5m/yr) with continuing growth that would then warrant a PE of 20x, and that is ignoring the discounted value of the 5-yrs between now and then. In other words, if you squint a bit and are a true-believer, the current TSLA price is fair value on a success basis on automotive alone.

To envision the next 5-years as being something other than share price stagnation, and setting aside FSD (not that one should), one needs to look at the remainder of the prize, i.e. the other 75-95m/yr vehicles; and the approximately equal scale of challenge in energy.

This is exactly the point, it is not off-topic at all, as it directly affects current share price.
 
To add on to this, I think there’s genuine uncertainty about what Tesla is going to announce for 2021 guidance, for both investors thinking of selling and those thinking of buying.

800k guidance, maybe a bit of a sell off
850-950k guidance, probably keep these levels or move a bit higher
950k + guidance, I think we rally decently higher

I think they will announce a production target but probably not a delivery guidance due to uncertainty of forced shut downs and such all over the globe, especially EU.
 
$10B...

Screen Shot 2021-01-10 at 3.39.52 PM.png
 
Regardless of semantics (as for example is "missing out on a gain in stock price" the same as "taking a loss") selling a covered call is a somewhat bearish bet, but not the same as its "mirror bet" namely buying a put. The difference of course being as you point out that when selling a call the time decay works in your favor ("free premiums" as you call it) whereas it works in your disfavor when you buy a put (or when you buy a call for that matter). But we can't forget that selling calls is basically a bearish bet. And there's no such thing as a free lunch - if the stock rallies you will lose money (be worse off) having sold a covered call than if you just held the stock.

Depends on the covered calls. There are WSBer who are paying premiums for 1500 calls right now. Those are hail Mary calls and the chance of them being called away is almost zero. But hey if it is called away then you probably just scored too due to a short squeeze. Stocks will eventually go down from parabolic moves.
 
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Not how I see it with call options because there's a time limit attached to it. You are not betting that Tesla wouldn't be a multi-trillion dollar company one day, you are betting that it wouldn't be x price by x date. You are HOPING for some free premiums as you wait until Tesla become multi-trillion. But hey if there's a short squeeze there's a short squeeze. But no one is betting on a short squeeze, just the fundamentals of the company.

Well, I don't disagree with any of what you wrote. You can hope the premiums are free but that doesn't mean it's a good bet. Most of the time they end up free, sometimes they end up costing a lot.
 

Follow-up found on Nature re: international financing to avert climate change. Reading the article: the financing behind the Paris Agreement might be smoke and mirrors until the US steps up to help and organize, right?

Global climate action needs trusted finance data

"The COP26 meeting is less than a year away. Widely seen as the world’s last chance to take meaningful, unified action on climate change, it must succeed. That means developed and developing countries must agree on more-ambitious targets to reduce emissions, and ensure that the poorest countries, and those most vulnerable to climate change, receive support as they develop their economies in a more sustainable manner and prepare for the inevitable effects of global warming. The $100-billion pledge is a fraction of what is needed."
 
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Its not a loss, its a gain that isn’t as high as it could have been.

Heres an example. Say I sold 1x $800 call for Jan 15, 2021 at $20. On Jan 11th the stock is at $869. I decide to buy the call back but now its $90. To cover the cost, I sell a $820 Jan 22nd for $90. It’s still in the money which is bad for me, but delaying one week got me an extra $2000. And I can keep doing this and hope the stock drops back OTM.
You can link these trades in your mind if you like, but that doesn't change reality. You lost $70 per share on the first trade. And then you follow it up by making a new trade, which looks a whole lot like the first trade. You'll probably just lose more money because you didn't learn your lesson from the first trade.

You say it got you an extra $2000, but you're just confused. The trade is, of course, approximately neutral when you make it. You get $2000 more, but you take on $2000 more liability. Saying "I can keep doing this and hope the stock drops" sounds so smart. What? No, it sounds exactly like TSLAQ.
 
This is exactly the topic for the numbers to be discussed.

TSLA is currently priced to 'grow-into' a valuation based on 2025/26 production (5m/yr) with continuing growth that would then warrant a PE of 20x, and that is ignoring the discounted value of the 5-yrs between now and then. In other words, if you squint a bit and are a true-believer, the current TSLA price is fair value on a success basis on automotive alone.

To envision the next 5-years as being something other than share price stagnation, and setting aside FSD (not that one should), one needs to look at the remainder of the prize, i.e. the other 75-95m/yr vehicles; and the approximately equal scale of challenge in energy.

This is exactly the point, it is not off-topic at all, as it directly affects current share price.

I think it's as easy as if five years forward is included in the price then at the end of 2021 you can add 2026 to the valuation instead of 2021.

2026 is estimated to sell around five million cars more than 2021.

So unless Tesla fails to execute this year the upside for the share price this year is excellent.
 
Regardless of semantics (as for example is "missing out on a gain in stock price" the same as "taking a loss") selling a covered call is a somewhat bearish bet, but not the same as its "mirror bet" namely buying a put.

To my way of thinking of a "mirror bet", the buying of a call would be much more of a mirror bet of the selling of a call than the buying of a put.

What could be a better mirror of the bet than the other side of the same bet? And I don't care whether it's called a "bearish bet" or "semi-bullish", it doesn't matter to me, what matters are the ramifications, ultimately, the risk/reward.
 
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Well, I don't disagree with any of what you wrote. You can hope the premiums are free but that doesn't mean it's a good bet. Most of the time they end up free, sometimes they end up costing a lot.
Or save you a lot. You could have sold at a lower price during the squeeze vs your covered calls. Or you could watch it go pass your covered call number and then watch it crash all the way down which may take months to recover. Who knows..
 
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If you think it's such a bad decision put your money where your mouth is and buy the calls this guy is selling.

I'm not saying any particular covered call at any particular time is a good or bad bet, some are good, some are not. No one will know until the expiration. I'm saying it's close enough to zero sum game, on average, it's not worth messing with. No one knows what the future share price will be, why spin your wheels and tie up capital betting on it.

edit to add: People that play these systems regularly tend to think they are eeking out a regular profit but they are often being misled by the way the human brain thinks of wins and losses.
 
Anyone know where to find a list of all the funds that are benchmarked to the S&P? Google searches are not yielding much helpful information...
Got a bit further and found this: Looking Up a Fund’s Holdings — Oblivious Investor
Then to this: https://www.aaii.com/journal/articl...=There are more than 40,or a subset the index.

Which pointed to this table: https://www.aaii.com/journal/article/tracking-the-sp-500-with-mutual-funds-and-etfs?#table-1

But it seems that the funds don't update often so very hard to tell which have TSLA.
 
I'm not saying any particular covered call at any particular time is a good or bad bet, some are good, some are not. No one will know until the expiration. I'm saying it's close enough to zero sum game, on average, it's not worth messing with. No one knows what the future share price will be, why spin your wheels and tie up capital betting on it.

edit to add: People that play these systems regularly tend to think they are eeking out a regular profit but they are often being misled by the way the human brain thinks of wins and losses.

Math doesn't lie.

I regularly sell OTM covered calls, and I add to my share base by buying more shares with the premium. Even in the epic run-up that TSLA has had, I still have not had a single share called away. If the run up is that great and a call goes from OTM to ITM, then the future calls have gone up even more (has ALWAYS been the case), and I've rolled forward and gotten some more premium in the process.

Simply put - I have MORE shares of TSLA now than I would have possibly had with just a HODL strategy.
 
Math doesn't lie.

I regularly sell OTM covered calls, and I add to my share base by buying more shares with the premium. Even in the epic run-up that TSLA has had, I still have not had a single share called away. If the run up is that great and a call goes from OTM to ITM, then the future calls have gone up even more (has ALWAYS been the case), and I've rolled forward and gotten some more premium in the process.

Simply put - I have MORE shares of TSLA now than I would have possibly had with just a HODL strategy.

That's certainly possible. But it sounds like you are saying you protect your CC with a call with a later date. If so, that has it's own downsides that I won't go into here because there is a forum for discussing options strategies.

I only comment here after someone has let the cat out of the bag and brought options into the investor's roundtable thread. I don't think it's right that a beginning investor sees people claiming they are making "free money" without seeing any rebuttal. The real solution is to not bring options strategies into the investor's thread in the first place and that way I don't have to point out the money is never really "free" or risk-free which is rarely mentioned.