Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
There are other companies that do equivalent pieces of software. They tend to not publicise them in general press as the client set is ordinarily quite small - major (or minor) utilities and the like. That is why Tesla doesn't promote Autobidder much in manistream media. You want it to be selling on the QT, and you and your clients making big $$ on the QT, with no public ripples. Even doing proper due diligence to buy software like this generally involves getting snarled up in so many NDAs you can't speak to your mother for years. I'm not convinced there is anything particularly clever in Tesla's software. I've developed this stuff, and looked at other peoples' stuff., and there are lots of clever people out there. A lot of what does get to the outside media is badge-engineered versions of someone else's stuff .....

Examples - and you can figure out whether these are or are not badged:


Tesla with Autobidder has the potential to tap into the Residential Customer grid whereas the competitors all deal with Commercial businesses and Utilities (with no residential). Tesla's Virtual Power Plant uses Powerwalls from Customers who have enrolled in the program. I believe this is a true statement . . it is what I have read.
 
There are other companies that do equivalent pieces of software. They tend to not publicise them in general press as the client set is ordinarily quite small - major (or minor) utilities and the like.
Can you comment on what you think the competitive environment may be? I don’t work in power. I understand there are a lot of services that can be sold in grids.

If autobidder can shave a fraction of a cent off for a service, do they automatically win?
 
There are other companies that do equivalent pieces of software. They tend to not publicise them in general press as the client set is ordinarily quite small - major (or minor) utilities and the like. That is why Tesla doesn't promote Autobidder much in manistream media. You want it to be selling on the QT, and you and your clients making big $$ on the QT, with no public ripples. Even doing proper due diligence to buy software like this generally involves getting snarled up in so many NDAs you can't speak to your mother for years. I'm not convinced there is anything particularly clever in Tesla's software. I've developed this stuff, and looked at other peoples' stuff., and there are lots of clever people out there. A lot of what does get to the outside media is badge-engineered versions of someone else's stuff .....
Blasphemy!!!
 
  • Disagree
Reactions: TheTalkingMule
Tesla with Autobidder has the potential to tap into the Residential Customer grid whereas the competitors all deal with Commercial businesses and Utilities (with no residential). Tesla's Virtual Power Plant uses Powerwalls from Customers who have enrolled in the program. I believe this is a true statement . . it is what I have read.
No, at least I think not.

As an example the Octopus (Kraken) setup also manages domestic (residential) storage in a VPP manner. However I am unsure whether Kraken does that natively, or whether they run a licenced Autobidder as a feed into the main Kraken. There is public domain evidence in both directions, so it is possible that Octopus has two different teams running parallel efforts.

There are also things going on in Japan, France, Germany, and China that don't get much reporting in the Anglosphere. And I have a lot of ex-colleagues doing interesting stuff.

Autobidder is not new, not ahead, just gets more column inches. It may however win the adoption game. But it is most definitely NOT a one-horse race.

@Tommy O - There are different realms. Different winners may emerge in each realm. And each country has those realms. And things change. This is not a new game - the various power companies are continuously playing in the power markets of the world, and they are not doing it with a slide rule and an abacus. It is fast and efficient software, and it also keeps the grid stable and balanced. I've seen people make $m just off playing poker carefully with game theory software and a 500kw diesel genset. Don't underestimate the others who are playing this game. Just as in the oil markets and the financial markets and so on, this is serious $$$.
 
Last edited:
Surprised it hasn't been mentioned but looks like Tesla is getting ready to start sending S/X to Europe.

Quite a number of people posting that they've gotten status updates about their S/X orders in Europe.

From the deliveries thread:

🤷‍♀️

I have not heard anything regarding my order yet. But it would be nice!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nocturnal
I think most people miss what really sets Tesla apart and what is the defining thing that will hand them the win when everyone is trying to "de-throne" Tesla. It's not that they are cool (even though they are currently considered somewhat cool), it's not that they are better (even though they are measurably and obviously better in the most common metrics). Those two things helped them get to where they are today without failing. But that's not what's important going forward because Tesla is reinventing the car industry. What's important is how much value they can offer the consumer. And most car buyers don't care about "cool". They do care about "better" but "good enough" wins if the price is right enough to make sense.

What's going to ensure Tesla's future success is not how much better they will be, it will be how much value they will offer. It will be Tesla's ability to offer a good quality car for far less money than any competitor while still bringing home the best margins in the industry. You can only do this if your cost to produce and deliver the car is far lower than the rest of the industry. I think the Chinese makers will be the closest to being able to offer the kind of value Tesla does, but close is no cigar and they will have other headwinds. The rest won't even come close for a bunch of reasons I'm not going to mention now.

People need to stop thinking this is a popularity contest. When every car brand offers nearly the same amount of value, as has often been the case over many decades, then, yes, what's more stylish or has more cachet can determine the winners. That's been true for much of the auto industries existence, you have to go back to Ford and their Model T to find an analogy of what I'm talking about. Or maybe the VW Beetle but let's look at the Model T. It was not the most popular car in the world because it was so cool, it was because it offered so much value. Ford could make it in high volumes for far less than any competitor. There were bigger cars, there were more luxurious cars, there were more powerful cars, some of them you could even order in the color of your choice. The Model T only came in black; it was not cool (everyone had one), it was the opposite of powerful and luxurious, and yet it rose to 60% market share. That's because it could be produced and sold at a low cost. It was practical and reliable. Henry Ford was making money hand over fist while other carmakers struggled to break even.

This is the path Tesla is on. Yes, there is only one Tesla, but it's not because they are "cool", it's because they know how to make practical cars in high volume and at ever declining prices. The current situation of rising prices is a temporary condition caused by a shortage of cars and commodity inflation. As an investor I like that Tesla's ace in the hole is not "cool" factor, it's that they will be able to offer the best value in the industry (they already can as recent earnings have proven). I know it's possible to make a lot of money by investing in fashion or in fads, but both are too fickle for me to consider as good investments. There is no certainty in it. What Tesla is doing has more certainty and more staying power, two things I value highly in an investment.

Our reasoning for buying a brand and its product is never just value, and this may not even be the most important metric for many of us. There are many other factors involved such as brand loyalty (mentioned in this thread), and principles. I will never buy a GM solely on principle because of how they borked the GM1 and caved to oil interests. There's a documentary about this called 'Who Killed the Electric Car?'. Mary Barra seems all too happy to take the credit erroneously given to her (by Biden) for Tesla's (and Elon's) accomplishments. It's the same reason I have Chick-Fil-A on lifetime boycott. Principles.

Practicality alone isn't necessarily what drives people to buy cars either. There's emotional 'thinking' in there too, brand loyalty (including familial loyalty), principles and ethics, and our opinion of the CEO factors in too. I have people in my own family who won't buy a Tesla because they're so offended by Elon. Meanwhile, I like Elon more over time (but for the 'pedo guy' comment). I'm amused at how offended people get with Elon, and there's a definite ideological pattern to it. Then again, there are heroes of mine who some Tesla-drivers find deeply disturbing, which puzzles me to no end. How can anyone hate Sam Harris, one of my favorite thinkers?

I like Elon not because of his silly jokes on Twitter, but because he's bold and smart and courageous, and wastes no time implementing ideas that would absolutely stump a committee of people just trying 'not to fail'. I love this mindset, and I can relate to it personally. Rocket boosters landing on their struts? That's Jetsons-level cool, and Elon (and SpaceX) did it. Yet, people want to lie about him and cancel him. It's a level of pettiness and malice that I can hardly comprehend.

Some of this 'hate' I think is also low-hanging fruit for those who want to make noises that please their ingroup, even if they have no idea about why the ingroup opinions fall one way or another. If it's 'cool' to diss Elon, then some people will make those noises. Same reason a kid might feel compelled to rock an Apple vs. standing out. This definitely is part of the momentum behind FUD....people repeating memetic ideas without much thought, for better or worse.

Our personality, the big five psych traits, our worldview, our principles and ethics, the emotional impact of aesthetics—it all affects buying decisions. Advertising banks on it, but Tesla doesn't advertise and that's another thing which makes them 'cool' in my view.
 
Last edited:
Second European gigafactory here we come
There are many reasons why even a UK that was a part of the EU would not be a good site for a Gigafactory.

The biggest one has long been the presence of the English Channel separating the UK from mainland Europe. That would have disqualified the UK already even before they left the EU.
 
There are many reasons why even a UK that was a part of the EU would not be a good site for a Gigafactory.

The biggest one has long been the presence of the English Channel separating the UK from mainland Europe. That would have disqualified the UK already even before they left the EU.
Nothing another boring tunnel couldn't fix :)
 
Obviously, one cannot post that every last one of us would keel over dead if oil stopped flowing out of the ground without caring about ridicule. Some of us know how to subsist in very inhospitable environments indefinitely, without any outside support. It makes you wonder how humanity lived 99.99% of their time here on earth without big oil pumping oil out of the ground for us!

Don't get me wrong, some people would die without big oil, big pharma, industrialized food production, etc. But making inflammatory statements that are laughable and obviously false, is the definition of trolling. If it was a serious statement, well, let's just say that too should be grounds for termination. There's no fixing that.

You realize that most of the planet believes in ideas that are obviously false, right? :D People are allowed to be wrong, even stupid. But if it's just an obviously wrong statement it doesn't make it 'trolling'. Trolling is inflaming people for the sole purpose of making people upset. Being wrong....well that's normal for humans. I think every single theist on Earth is wrong and they think I'm wrong, but that doesn't make us trolls.

A sincerely-held belief isn't trolling, but it does behoove people to be better critical thinkers. Intelligence alone is never enough. We must possess courage, intellectual honesty, and humility. Without that perfect storm it's difficult for people to divest themselves of long-held beliefs, no matter how 'obviously wrong' they might be to others. I know, it's annoying because sometimes the facts are just self-evident. How can anyone be a Flat Earther today? Yet, they persist because they lack the intellectual honesty, the courage, or the humility to change position about settled science. All of the intellect in the world means nothing without those aforementioned traits.
 
Last edited:
@lascavarian
weirdly enough, Tesla first offered ~$14,000 for 2017 Prius plug in w/49,000 miles for my LRMY, they upped it to ~$23,000 (it took 10 months from order till finally got)(every month "yer trade in offer has expired, take a picture of mileage to get new offer", so we almost never drove it for a year, did a 3,500 trip with the Y immediately.
as an aside, I first used L1 extension cords to charge PHEV's from outside GFI plug, very slow, 100ft, you could trace them if snow fell as they were "warm", switched to 25ft out a window, 3.5 - 4,0 miles/hr charge but had small PV system then (~1kw)
Got our PHEV in 2014. Used L1 charging while I built an L2 EVSE from a kit with YouTube instructions and a soldering iron. Still use the L2 EVSE today with our 3 at restrictedo power.

The one thing the PHEV did for us was remove any doubt that we wanted a much simpler EV as our next vehicle. We got $8k trade in on our $34k MSRP PHEV with 60k miles.

Thanks for your comments.
 
I don’t use the feature too often in the Bay Area, not too necessary. Mainly when I have driving companions and to show off. Pretty cool when it’s 80F plus out and when you get in the car it’s 68F.

However I was in Reno on Wednesday and had multiple stops in the area, it was about 104F, first stop I got back to the car and it was oppressively hot. The next 5 stops I set the cabin temp from the app about 5 minutes before getting back in the car. Truly luxury!
We went one tasting with friends in Paso Robles and it was great to keep the car at 68F all day, so the wine we bought stayed nice and cool (as well as the car for comfort). Hardly used any energy, maybe 1% or so. Can’t wait for FSD so we don’t need a designated driver!
 
Interesting. When I go on Yahoo Finance, I see this for Tesla. 34% analysts have BUY ratings.
View attachment 835094

However, when I go to TD Waterhouse, I see this. 58% analysts have BUY ratings. I prefer this. Not sure why the discrepancy. I do not recall the BUY ratings have ever been this high of a percentage. And the top star analysts carry the BUY ratings....no figure.
View attachment 835095
View attachment 835096
View attachment 835097
View attachment 835098
View attachment 835099
View attachment 835100
That information says 31 analysts but I count 32…unless they also throw out Global Equities’s “Unknown Analyst”.
 
Thanks all for the really educational weekend discussing hybrids. I don’t know anything about cars, so I read with, well, open interest.

I have been thinking about buying a plug in Rav 4. I am not a car person, and I don’t drive a lot. My office is about 4 miles from home; I often either WFH or ride my bike to work. I previously had a much longer commute in heavy traffic, but will never go back to that.

I drive a 2014 Rav 4 with under 100k miles on it. Great car, no issues. It’s paid off, and I really don’t need a car payment now. But I want to go EV, and I want a navigation screen (which my car lacks) so I checked out the M3. I’m shocked at the price. I’m on a budget, saving for retirement, and I can’t afford that. So I thought a plug in Rav would do the trick for the time being.

My plan was to plug in nightly so that the car would always use the battery, and I would never need gas (except for the occasional long trip). Confused, now, if that is even possible. Apparently this is a bad idea and PHEVs are terrible, complicated cars which don’t save much gas after all.

New plan is to continue driving my Rav 4 for now. Once TSLA hits $2k or so, I will be able to retire AND get an M3. Hopefully within the next 2 years or so!

I do appreciate all the knowledge, expertise and experience on this board!
 
We have a similar tax "rebate" in New York (Chuck Schumer's state) and it does apply to Tesla. I got a $2000 discount directly from Tesla when I bought my Model 3.


View attachment 835020

Tesla is a "participating dealer" in this context.
FYI. Only $500 for tesla now. That’s all I got for my Model Y. It now Needs to be under a certain base msrp for the full $2,000. My brother got more for his RAV4 prime than I did for my model y.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JRP3