Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

[phoggy123]

Martin Viecha. Jerome left Tesla ages ago. (Might come back once Semi is in mass production?)

You are correct, not sure why I missed that.

 

[JRP3]

I spent the last 20 minutes cussing at the engineer who placed a small torx screw way high up on the Model 3 cabin air filter that I'm changing to get rid of the funky smell (this has been changed in newer models) and I come in to see this tweet. Ok, Tesla is back in my good graces. Clever.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1572352903079403522

S/X also had an aluminum bottom and steel top, we never saw a pack fire that dropped the pack out of the bottom that I recall.

 

[Bet TSLA]

To be clear, you didn't say "Tesla might have made mistakes in this area", you said. "Tesla HR, management, and yes Elon have also clearly dropped the ball...".

I'm not willing to jump to that conclusion based on an article full of innuendo. What we do have a record of is that Tesla has clear and strict policies against this kind of behavior, and I haven't seen a shred of evidence that Elon or Tesla's Human Resources Department doesn't take this kind of allegation very seriously. Perpetrators who commit this kind of harassment tend to not do it in front of other witnesses and what actually happened is not always clear. It goes on in every workplace and, yes, Tesla does fire people for deviating from policy. We have no real evidence, what we do have is a bunch of innuendo from the 'journalist' and a very small number of disgruntled employees. You are going to have isolated incidences of that at every large factory and it's not limited to blue-collar workers. You will also have people making false charges against fellow employees they don't like so it's not always clear if the bad actor is the accused or the accuser. It's very hard to tell which it is when it's "he said, she said" unless it becomes an identifiable pattern with more than one person making complaints against the same person or the accused is caught in the act by other parties or recorded.

You are quite right that we don't know anything for sure. But I've heard enough to be reasonably confident that there are people behaving wrongly in Tesla facilities, and that those people are not being slapped down hard enough to stop them. Lawsuits have been filed, and the documented behavior of the alleged victims of harassment makes it clear that something happened to upset them enormously. Enough that they would run away, leave lucrative jobs, etc.

Sure, it's possible that it's all made up, but that's not likely. Sure, the writer of the story in Rolling Stone presents facts selectively, exaggerates for dramatic effect, and clearly doesn't know much about Tesla. But that doesn't negate the underlying problem. If Tesla doesn't have a fair collection of jerks for employees I will be very surprised. But it's management's job to weed out jerks, not be jerks themselves. And it's fairly clear that management is not fostering a healthy work environment.

And if this stuff turns out to be as bad as the stink indicates it might be, then that adds credence to all the racial discrimination allegations, which have generated lawsuits as well. So Tesla needs to be proactive here. It's not as though there aren't lots of people looking to work at Tesla. Getting rid of jerks will be good for everybody, even if they're good at their jobs.

Yeah, yeah, one day they'll mostly be replaced by humanoid robots, but that isn't happening for a long time. Meanwhile, if Tesla is allowing a toxic workplace culture to fester, it's Tesla that is ultimately responsible. Even if, as always, the problem stems from the fact that too many people are a**holes. Having "policies" in place that disallow that sort of behavior is not sufficient if they aren't enforced diligently.

 

[Knightshade]

Just because this checks so many boxes for so many in this thread on the whole "it's fine if they have policies" thing...

The SEC has policies about short selling and market manipulation.

Everyone here agrees that's all they need and everything's fine... right?

 

[larmor]

Just because this checks so many boxes for so many in this thread on the whole "it's fine if they have policies" thing...

The SEC has policies about short selling and market manipulation.

Everyone here agrees that's all they need and everything's fine... right?

Some peoples' business is to short sell, that is their revenue stream. TSLA fits perfectly because historically any headline can shift it down by 1-5% and thus a business is born. The SEC is protective of all businesses, presumably those who serendipitously change their investments on a minute by minute or hourly or daily basis to generate their revenue.

Tesla makes electric cars, that is their primary business. They don't make headlines, they don't make 'news', and they don't use money to chase market (manipulations) moves...

 

[Discoducky]

S/X also had an aluminum bottom and steel top, we never saw a pack fire that dropped the pack out of the bottom that I recall.

Yep, this doesn't pass the engineering sniff test for me. I cannot see Tesla putting engineers to design the chassis and pack this way. It brings up all kinds of weird situations and scenarios if the car is rolling, rotating or not wheels down when the pack ejects. I'm not a materials expert by any means (love to hear what Munro thinks), but using the melting deformation properties of aluminum to allow the pack to eject from the chassis is just extremely weird.

I'll wait until Tesla confirms.

 

[MP3Mike]

Yep, this doesn't pass the engineering sniff test for me. I cannot see Tesla putting engineers to design the chassis and pack this way. It brings up all kinds of weird situations and scenarios if the car is rolling, rotating or not wheels down when the pack ejects. I'm not a materials expert by any means (love to hear what Munro thinks), but using the melting deformation properties of aluminum to allow the pack to eject from the chassis is just extremely weird.

I'll wait until Tesla confirms.

I agree, but EV FireSafe, the ones saying that they have reached out to Tesla and got that confirmation about it, looks to be a legit organization.

 

[MC3OZ]

You are quite right that we don't know anything for sure. But I've heard enough to be reasonably confident that there are people behaving wrongly in Tesla facilities, and that those people are not being slapped down hard enough to stop them. Lawsuits have been filed, and the documented behavior of the alleged victims of harassment makes it clear that something happened to upset them enormously. Enough that they would run away, leave lucrative jobs, etc.

Sure, it's possible that it's all made up, but that's not likely. Sure, the writer of the story in Rolling Stone presents facts selectively, exaggerates for dramatic effect, and clearly doesn't know much about Tesla. But that doesn't negate the underlying problem. If Tesla doesn't have a fair collection of jerks for employees I will be very surprised. But it's management's job to weed out jerks, not be jerks themselves. And it's fairly clear that management is not fostering a healthy work environment.

And if this stuff turns out to be as bad as the stink indicates it might be, then that adds credence to all the racial discrimination allegations, which have generated lawsuits as well. So Tesla needs to be proactive here. It's not as though there aren't lots of people looking to work at Tesla. Getting rid of jerks will be good for everybody, even if they're good at their jobs.

Yeah, yeah, one day they'll mostly be replaced by humanoid robots, but that isn't happening for a long time. Meanwhile, if Tesla is allowing a toxic workplace culture to fester, it's Tesla that is ultimately responsible. Even if, as always, the problem stems from the fact that too many people are a**holes. Having "policies" in place that disallow that sort of behavior is not sufficient if it isn't enforced diligently.

We need to distinguish between what may be happening, and official company policy.

I'm sure some types of behaviour (that are probably happening) are a sacking offence, but sacking someone requires an official complaint and evidence is also required. I'm also sure that there is an official complaint process.

So the situation at Tesla is much like any other company, with the possible exception that some Tesla HR areas might be under resourced.

So the media are scrapping the bottom of the barrel because all of their other talking points ended up firing blanks, or because the journalist feels strongly about this particular issue and is looking for a high profile example, and/or a story that will generate clicks.

The ratio of employees that are jerks might be fairly typical for a US company, I would like it to be lower than average, but we have no solid evidence either way. When bad behaviour is happening, the culprit may be careful and being doing it ways that are not easily detected or corroborated.

There is also a limit on how far a company can reasonably go in spying on their employees.

So perhaps critics should cite one example of a company that is definitely doing it better, with evidence to back their claims.

 

[ZeApelido]

I love the bluntness

https://twitter.com/x/status/1572414455681814528

 

[StealthP3D]

You are quite right that we don't know anything for sure. But I've heard enough to be reasonably confident that there are people behaving wrongly in Tesla facilities, and that those people are not being slapped down hard enough to stop them. Lawsuits have been filed, and the documented behavior of the alleged victims of harassment makes it clear that something happened to upset them enormously. Enough that they would run away, leave lucrative jobs, etc.

Sure, it's possible that it's all made up, but that's not likely. Sure, the writer of the story in Rolling Stone presents facts selectively, exaggerates for dramatic effect, and clearly doesn't know much about Tesla. But that doesn't negate the underlying problem. If Tesla doesn't have a fair collection of jerks for employees I will be very surprised. But it's management's job to weed out jerks, not be jerks themselves. And it's fairly clear that management is not fostering a healthy work environment.

And if this stuff turns out to be as bad as the stink indicates it might be, then that adds credence to all the racial discrimination allegations, which have generated lawsuits as well. So Tesla needs to be proactive here. It's not as though there aren't lots of people looking to work at Tesla. Getting rid of jerks will be good for everybody, even if they're good at their jobs.

Yeah, yeah, one day they'll mostly be replaced by humanoid robots, but that isn't happening for a long time. Meanwhile, if Tesla is allowing a toxic workplace culture to fester, it's Tesla that is ultimately responsible. Even if, as always, the problem stems from the fact that too many people are a**holes. Having "policies" in place that disallow that sort of behavior is not sufficient if they aren't enforced diligently.

Oh, no, I'm confident there is harassment happening at Tesla and all companies of a similar size. What I'm not convinced of is that Elon Musk and the HR Department are enabling it (or encouraging it as the article seems to imply). This kind of thing happens at all large factories, but we just don't hear about it as prolifically. And it would surprise me if some of it hasn't been brought to light with the encouragement of people wanting to tarnish Tesla and Elon Musk.

It looks like the article, full of innuendo, worked on you too. What we don't know is what the true prevalence of harassment at Tesla is relative to other companies that don't have people coming forward as publicly and the media picking it up and amplifying it. Because the amount of "noise" we hear about it is likely exaggerated relative to similar dynamics at other companies not named "Tesla" and not owned by Elon Musk. To believe that the media treats Tesla differently than other companies unless they are covering harassment in the workplace, and then they are accurate and unbiased, is a stretch I'm not willing to make. Even though the allegations against one or more employees are disgusting in the extreme, the actual allegations against Tesla that have actually been documented are few and somewhat vague while innuendo runs strong. I need more convincing evidence than what has been shown before I believe Tesla does not take it seriously (or, heaven forbid, encourages it). Because that's the impression they are trying to create with scant evidence that it's actually true.

 

[StealthP3D]

Yep, this doesn't pass the engineering sniff test for me. I cannot see Tesla putting engineers to design the chassis and pack this way. It brings up all kinds of weird situations and scenarios if the car is rolling, rotating or not wheels down when the pack ejects. I'm not a materials expert by any means (love to hear what Munro thinks), but using the melting deformation properties of aluminum to allow the pack to eject from the chassis is just extremely weird.

I'll wait until Tesla confirms.

I think the truth probably lands somewhere in the middle. Tesla designed the pack a certain way and some engineers objected, raising the possibility that the aluminum would not be supportive in the event of thermal runaway of the battery. After considering the implications, they determined it was more of a "feature" than a problem and left it that way. Maybe they even decided to make it release earlier in the thermal event. Because the car is probably not going to be still moving by the time the pack becomes hot enough to release itself.

 

[TN Mtn Man]

I love the bluntness

https://twitter.com/x/status/1572414455681814528

Is Reich's statement slander or libel? I always get those two mixed up.

 

[StealthP3D]

Is Reich's statement slander or libel? I always get those two mixed up.

Did you lose your on-line dictionary bookmark, or do you just have thing against doing actual hardcore research?

 

[Bet TSLA]

Oh, no, I'm confident there is harassment happening at Tesla and all companies of a similar size. What I'm not convinced of is that Elon Musk and the HR Department are enabling it (or encouraging it as the article seems to imply). This kind of thing happens at all large factories, but we just don't hear about it as prolifically. And it would surprise me if some of it hasn't been brought to light with the encouragement of people wanting to tarnish Tesla and Elon Musk.

It looks like the article, full of innuendo, worked on you too. What we don't know is what the true prevalence of harassment at Tesla is relative to other companies that don't have people coming forward as publicly and the media picking it up and amplifying it. Because the amount of "noise" we hear about it is likely exaggerated relative to similar dynamics at other companies not named "Tesla" and not owned by Elon Musk. To believe that the media treats Tesla differently than other companies unless they are covering harassment in the workplace, and then they are accurate and unbiased, is a stretch I'm not willing to make. Even though the allegations against one or more employees are disgusting in the extreme, the actual allegations against Tesla that have actually been documented are few and somewhat vague while innuendo runs strong. I need more convincing evidence than what has been shown before I believe Tesla does not take it seriously (or, heaven forbid, encourages it). Because that's the impression they are trying to create with scant evidence that it's actually true.

Funny. No, I think your blinders and preconceptions worked on you. Mind control, you know. You're helpless in the face of information you don't want to believe.

But, disengaging from fantasy, we are dealing with court cases, not just media. You know, things that are charges, that turn into sworn testimony if they actually get to court. Things that land people in lots of trouble if they're just made up (unlike dubious journalism).

It's not as though people are going to imagine that Tesla will settle, just from the threat. Elon doesn't do that if he thinks he's in the right.

So, I think at this point, there's enough evidence to make a guess that the likelihood is that Tesla's workplace is screwed up. Not intentionally, but through neglect. Just like (to risk the wrath of the mods) communications. Nobody in charge wants badness, but it's nobody's job to make sure it doesn't happen. And there won't be until Elon cares enough to make it somebody's job, a VP with actual authority and responsibility. And at this point it's pretty clear that Elon won't be changing until he's forced to -- he has other priorities. Legal action can force that sort of change.

You wonder about other manufacturers. I was surprised that it was happening in sales and service at Tesla as well. What I wonder about it whether it's happening at Tesla in China and Germany. It does seem rooted in dubious cultural norms to me. If you don't fire the a**holes, they'll take over your workplace.

 

[The Accountant]

They also guided a reduction in production by over 50k this Q. Looking at their net income historically, 1B in expenses will either take all their profits and drive them to the negative this Q or at best case it's a 50% drop in earnings.

Another issue is that supply chain cost increase is kind of sticky. It'll take a few quarters before it unwinds. So either Ford start rising prices to compensate or else it'll be a brutal Q4 as well as every car manufacture ramps up for Q4.

Through the first 6 months of the year, Tesla had Auto Operating Margins of 18.0% vs Ford's 0.5%.
It will be interesting when I update this chart with 9 months through Q3. Tesla will further its lead.

 

[MC3OZ]

we are dealing with court cases,

How about court cases for other companies?

Is the statistical rate of these cases per 1,000 employees higher at Tesla than other companies?

it is likely that we don't know, because the journalist was not seeking to be balanced and objective.

No one is condoning bad behaviour, what I am saying is it is likely to reflect a culture within society, as well as a culture at a workplace.

I've still seen no real evidence that that an unusually bad culture exists at Tesla.

Any metrics do need to be adjusted for the number of employees, that is why I suggest a rate per 1,000 employees is a fair measure.

I'm also not saying Tesla should not seek to improve the culture, the rules and the enforcement of the rules, just that the evidence that the problem is worse than anywhere else isn't substantial.

There is a difference between a court case and statistics, every court case is different, An unusually high number of court cases at a company indicates a wider problem. An individual court case, or a handful of cases, doesn't necessarily mean that company is in any way different to other companies.

 

[AZRI11]

Funny. No, I think your blinders and preconceptions worked on you. Mind control, you know. You're helpless in the face of information you don't want to believe.

But, disengaging from fantasy, we are dealing with court cases, not just media. You know, things that are charges, that turn into sworn testimony if they actually get to court. Things that land people in lots of trouble if they're just made up (unlike dubious journalism).

It's not as though people are going to imagine that Tesla will settle, just from the threat. Elon doesn't do that if he thinks he's in the right.

So, I think at this point, there's enough evidence to make a guess that the likelihood is that Tesla's workplace is screwed up. Not intentionally, but through neglect. Just like (to risk the wrath of the mods) communications. Nobody in charge wants badness, but it's nobody's job to make sure it doesn't happen. And there won't be until Elon cares enough to make it somebody's job, a VP with actual authority and responsibility. And at this point it's pretty clear that Elon won't be changing until he's forced to -- he has other priorities. Legal action can force that sort of change.

You wonder about other manufacturers. I was surprised that it was happening in sales and service at Tesla as well. What I wonder about it whether it's happening at Tesla in China and Germany. It does seem rooted in dubious cultural norms to me. If you don't fire the a**holes, they'll take over your workplace.

"Google" sexual harassment at other auto manufacturers. Also "Google" sexual harassment, at car dealerships. I worked for over 10 years in a factory as a QC inspector towards the end more in R&D. It was a union factory (IBEW) less than 500 people, harassment was prevalent and there were lawsuits that resulted in managers and supervisors having to take sensitivity training classes. A small percentage of people, especially men, are bad people, and they work everywhere. The job of companies is weeding these people out the door.

Tesla didn't have a large HR budget until late 2020. They should have done better, and would have done better if they had a larger HR department years ago.

 

[Max Plaid]

Options pull TSLA around like a dog on a chain. People blame the MM, but ultimately the options market as it is today wouldn't exist if they didn't hedge.

Probably an unpopular opinion around here, but options reform and getting rid of a lot of the manipulations people complain about would probably result in much more restricted options trading.

Not really defending the MM here, but just be careful of what you wish for.

To the best of my understanding, MM's aren't manipulating the market, they're supplying liquidity to the markets and hedging the options, they don't manipulate the market for OPEX as they don't care, their books are balanced at the end of each day - or should be

It's the Hedgies that are manipulating, they are the ones to gain or lose on the options markets

If someone knows better, please correct me

 

[Pezpunk]

Is Reich's statement slander or libel? I always get those two mixed up.

What part of what he posted isn’t factual?

 

[Huskyf]

autonomous FSD is still years away, but that's OK, Tesla will get it right eventually before anyone

S/X also had an aluminum bottom and steel top, we never saw a pack fire that dropped the pack out of the bottom that I recall.

No they have a titanium plate under