This is going to say quite a bit either way when we actually find out the actual truth. Right now, I honestly have no clue, but until proven, everything is fine in Beijing by me.
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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable
- Thread starter AudubonB
- Start date
Extraterrestrial nuclear suffers from the same problems as terrestrial (high cost, backups in case of failure, common mode failures), but has a couple of extra disadvantages.
It has to be reliable over long periods of time, without significant repair or maintenence. This implies a long test period, which could take decades if the first iteration is not good enough.
High power nuclear is a termal system, where a working fluid is heated which drives a heat engine. The cold end of the heat engine needs the working fluid to be cooled, which is difficult with no water (rivers, lakes, ocean) or air to dump the heat into. On the moon or Mars this means that a nuclear power system needs large radiators, although not as extensive as solar panels of equivalent power, they are more complex needing a working fluid and perhaps heavier, solar panels on the moon and mars can be very lightweight as they do not have to cope with significant weather and have less gravity to contend with.
Solar power is probably OK out to Jupiter though that would need concentrators, but nuclear is probably better for main asteroid belt, Jupiter and further out.
Dust will be an issue for solar panels on Mars. Well, it already is. Some sort of mechanical system to clear the dust will be necessary. Nuclear will undoubtedly find a place in the Martian energy scheme. Batteries are heavy too. Hydrogen and/or methane as an energy store might work if sufficient water deposits can be found.
Dust is a problem for solar, the panels seem mostly self cleaning, as is shown by the various Mars rovers. Dust is also a problem for cooling systems for nuclear, through less. There have been various solutions proposed to clean the solar panels, so although a problem it is not an unsolved one, using compressed CO2 to blow the dust off is probably the best. Dust storms are a significant problem for solar, needing either very large storage or drastic demand reduction.
Solar + batteries probably mass more than a nuclear system, but the difference is small enough that details matter - lots of small bases (which favour solar) or one big city (which favours nuclear). Much of the power will be used to create hydrogen/methane (probably mostly methane on Mars), to fuel the spaceships and feedstock for chemical industry, if those hydrogen/methane production plants can be run efficiently just during the day then solar does not need so much storage. Methane may act as backup energy storage for the solar power, it is needed for a few months for the length of dust storms, it is more difficult for backup to nuclear, sending a new nuclear power system and commissioning it could easily take three years.
There is plenty of water on Mars and it is widely spread in ice and hydrated minerals. There is water on the moon, billions of tonnes, but it is widely spread in shaded crators at the lunar poles, it is probably harder to extract than on Mars.
Bringing this back to Tesla, there is a struggle between distributed and centralised energy generation, storage and use. Big nuclear (and legacy coal, oil) is on the centralised side; utility scale solar and wind farms and megapack batteries are somewhere in the middle (but more to the centralised side), and rooftop solar, powerwall and EVs are at the distributed end. Tesla seems to be banking on distributed beating out centralised.
Elon has made many statements supporting nuclear power, but he seems to have decided that nuclear is not one of the technologies Tesla should persue and also that it won't be needed by SpaceX for a considerable time (if ever).
2daMoon
Mostly Harmless
Was pondering in the wee hours of the morning over:
I'm thinking it is only a matter of time before Elon is nominated for a Nobel prize.
Something like that would certainly paint him and his companies in a good light and help combat FUD, would it not?
- all that Starlink has done for Ukraine and is now offering to the citizens of Iran,
- along with the Earth-saving ecological aspects of the Tesla Mission, and,
- the "saving the human race by becoming multi-planetary" goal of SpaceX,
Something like that would certainly paint him and his companies in a good light and help combat FUD, would it not?
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Andy O
Member
General Fusion corporation is developing a small fusion reactor using their own distinctive technology. They have gone from having a (acknowledged) small chance of success to being recognized now as among potential successes, and they're building a larger prototype reactor in England now. Their first prototype was small enough to fit in a 2 car garage. Maybe one day their system or something evolved from it will be viable extra-planetarily, Mars, moon, or for asteroid mining.
So weekend Tesla - related kind of off topic post here....
Last week I got back from a two week 4500 mile trip in my Model Y where I car camped along the way at campgrounds and truck stops, sleeping in the car each night and driving most of every day. It was the longest car trip I've taken yet in the MY and it was far and away the most fun I've ever had on a long distance trip. I want to do many more trips like this in my Tesla, it was addictingly fun.
HOWEVER, the questions I got along the way from many strangers was nearly overwhelming. So many people were dumbfounded how I could drive all across the US in an electric car, they simply didn't realize it was even possible due to "range limits". Many others were amazed my car had Camp Mode which didn't need the "engine" to run overnight. Frunks still amaze lots of people too, I had an elderly couple who simply could not understand where the engine for the MY was! When I explained how much it had cost me to drive that far (compared to the MPG their RAV4 was getting) it literally blew one couples minds. And explaining how I'd let Autopilot drive the majority of the miles I'd put on felt like I was explaining alien technology to them for the first time, many people had no idea Autopilot was so far along.
What surprised me was the positivity of the people asking questions. Like many of them were genuinely positive about the things I explained to them, and a lot had "wanted" to look into EV's but simply thought they didn't work well today, and they were surprised I could do a trip like this with ease and comfort. I felt like a Tesla ambassador or something, I even gave two couples a quick drive to show them how the car felt driving.
It was very clear though, the people who knew even a little bit about EV's were very vocal about how they'd only consider buying a Tesla today but no other brand of EV.
No wonder Tesla demand is so high, tons of people out there are still learning the basics about this EV revolution we all clearly know is happening today. We here at TMC are ahead of the curve on this topic.
Last week I got back from a two week 4500 mile trip in my Model Y where I car camped along the way at campgrounds and truck stops, sleeping in the car each night and driving most of every day. It was the longest car trip I've taken yet in the MY and it was far and away the most fun I've ever had on a long distance trip. I want to do many more trips like this in my Tesla, it was addictingly fun.
HOWEVER, the questions I got along the way from many strangers was nearly overwhelming. So many people were dumbfounded how I could drive all across the US in an electric car, they simply didn't realize it was even possible due to "range limits". Many others were amazed my car had Camp Mode which didn't need the "engine" to run overnight. Frunks still amaze lots of people too, I had an elderly couple who simply could not understand where the engine for the MY was! When I explained how much it had cost me to drive that far (compared to the MPG their RAV4 was getting) it literally blew one couples minds. And explaining how I'd let Autopilot drive the majority of the miles I'd put on felt like I was explaining alien technology to them for the first time, many people had no idea Autopilot was so far along.
What surprised me was the positivity of the people asking questions. Like many of them were genuinely positive about the things I explained to them, and a lot had "wanted" to look into EV's but simply thought they didn't work well today, and they were surprised I could do a trip like this with ease and comfort. I felt like a Tesla ambassador or something, I even gave two couples a quick drive to show them how the car felt driving.
It was very clear though, the people who knew even a little bit about EV's were very vocal about how they'd only consider buying a Tesla today but no other brand of EV.
No wonder Tesla demand is so high, tons of people out there are still learning the basics about this EV revolution we all clearly know is happening today. We here at TMC are ahead of the curve on this topic.
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hacer
Active Member
To be fair, they generated a lot of laughter which would increase the score. TMC's scoring system lacks the AI to distinguish actually laughing at something funny from laughing at stupidity.
2daMoon
Mostly Harmless
It is in moments like this where the Cybertruck's thick skin and no paint might really pay off.
this is a good idea so I'm copying itDo you want to join the upcoming SF Bay Area TeslaMotorsClub TSLA investor meetup? Possible activities include:
1) Brown-bagging beer and hang outside the Tesla Palo Alto former headquarters and taunt employees about when FSD will be done.
2) Jump the Fremont factory fence and go streaking across the test track.
3) Go to SF and troll a bunch of Waymo / Cruise vehicles by walking in front of them and just staying there so they never move.
If you are able to actually communicate in real life, let's meet up, maybe even this week? Probably grab a drink or food somewhere between SF and San Jose depending on responses.
PM me if interested and also respond to this Doodle on what could be good times for you.
How does the self cleaning tech work? They have wipers? Water sprays?
Just curious
2daMoon
Mostly Harmless
It mostly involves hoping for a dust devil to come along and blow them off.
They've also had some limited success tossing up regolith when the wind is blowing and letting that dislodge some of the finer dust on the panels.
TheTalkingMule
Distributed Energy Enthusiast
I would imagine on Mars in an autonomous environment it would be compressed air nozzles.
Great post. I am very much a tech person, yet I didn’t buy my first iPhone until three years after they were introduced (probably the same time the AT&T exclusive was gone). Likewise for an iPad … my mother bought one before I did. It just takes time for new disruptor products to disperse throughout an entire population. So yeah, Tesla won’t have a demand problem for the foreseeable future.
I was thinking more like a rolled sheet of solar cells, more like a roll of film, and it will be unrolled when the power output decreases by a certain percentage.
But how do you compress the air?. That needs an air compressor on the rover, and power which should come from the same solar cells.
But how do you compress the air?. That needs an air compressor on the rover, and power which should come from the same solar cells.
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