Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

[jerry33]

I feel like there should be a focus on EV towing capacity in the context of the environmental impact the same way the Semi needs focus despite being a small part of the overall
market, because towing anything significantly increases energy consumption and that increases emissions. Smaller trucks (and other vehicles) towing may also be a relatively minor chunk of the overall market, but I’d wager they tend to rack up more kilometres/miles and produce far more emissions per unit.

So a small slice of the market but every person who wants towing and switches to an EV will create a disproportionately larger benefit to emissions reduction.

If you are towing two to four times a year, it's not going to move the needle as compared to just getting rid of the ICE truck.

 

[MrMoo]

Android devices don't have a blue check yet (for some damn reason).

Hmmm ok I double down and go all in.

He can't afford a blue tick OR he can't afford an iphone lol.

Maybe he spent his 8 bucks on a share of Lucid

Lol. It makes me feel somewhat better that at least the algos traded RIVN and LCID down another 50% from their mid to late year supports

 

[wipster]

Trailer EVs (ie a trailer with its own battery & motor) seem like a natural evolution of this topic of conversation.

There are at least 2 commercial battery assisted trailers out in Europe right now. I posted links to both of them in one of the Semi threads back in November (which I can't find right now). I expect there will be a big increase in them as more Semis and other eTrucks come on the market, as well as some amazing innovation as well. The use of solar panels, using batteries for reefers instead of generators, and things we can't even imagine yet.

If you're interested in talking more about this subject, I suggest setting up a new thread, specifically for sharing links and other subject related news. I know I would contribute.

EDIT: I found the thread, look for Semi in the Investor board, then go to post #2388. Lot of great discussion pre and post that post!

 

[JRP3]

Trailer EVs (ie a trailer with its own battery & motor) seem like a natural evolution of this topic of conversation.

Only makes sense if you use it a lot, otherwise you paid for a battery pack that does nothing most of the time. Unless it can also be used for grid storage and backup.

 

[navguy12]

Yup. 100%

My Father in law also bought the Lightning, only 3 months after going off about how EV's are too expensive and not useful and other nonsense. But as a truck guy/former farmer, the Lightning (and hopefully the example of his two Tesla fanatic sons-in-law) was an offering he was willing to try (he viewed Teslas as rich people toys, though my BiL can't stop talking about the financial benefits of Tesla, so maybe that sunk in after a while).

He would never buy a CT because he's sensitive to others' opinions and 'the right look', so I think variety is important for EV adoption... And honestly, the more EV's on the road, the more people start realizing it's attainable, and those that research will see the benefits of TSLA over the rest, in time...

Someone I know sent me this FUD today.

Seems even the Ford Lightening is becoming a lightening rod for FUD:

Man Tries Towing 10,000-Pound Trailer with EV Truck in Winter, Goes Only 100 Miles - But It Gets Worse

Could you imagine sitting in a gas station for 45 minutes to fill up your car, only to discover that your tank was still empty?

www.westernjournal.com

 

[AndrewZ]

If you are towing two to four times a year, it's not going to move the needle as compared to just getting rid of the ICE truck.

I think this discussion could go a lot deeper, but the gist would be that we should probably be trying to replace trucks that are bought for towing and used for work (where towing ability might be a prerequisite for consideration) rather than vanity city cruisers who just go to and from the office.

Doing the math on this would probably be pretty interesting

 

[Skryll]

I don't need to think or type anymore other than ask ChatGPT questions...

[...]
Q: how much range loss is expected with the Cybertruck when towing


A: The Tesla Cybertruck is an electric vehicle (EV) and its range loss [... is ] expected to be lower than the range loss of a traditional truck because electric motors are more efficient than combustion engines and less energy is lost in the form of heat.

Well that's actually wrong. Because of efficiency of EV range loss is higher percentage wise compared to ICE, typically 50% compared to 20-30% on ICE since that one already wastes energy to heat loss when not towing.

 

[BornToFly]

Seems even the Ford Lightening is becoming a lightening rod for FUD:

Man Tries Towing 10,000-Pound Trailer with EV Truck in Winter, Goes Only 100 Miles - But It Gets Worse

Could you imagine sitting in a gas station for 45 minutes to fill up your car, only to discover that your tank was still empty?

www.westernjournal.com

That can't be right. Mike Levine on Twitter is always posting how the Ford Lightening saves the day by charging Teslas, and powering stadiums, hospitals, and small towns during blackouts....

(I'm exaggerating a little)

 

[Carl Raymond]

I agree the primary goal of the price cuts was not to blow other EV's out of the water. That said, the price cuts will impact more competitor's ICE sales vs. EV sales. These cuts make EV's far more competitive relative to ICE cars which are still the bulk of the market. The price cuts show Tesla is serious about driving the transition to sustainable transportation forward in a BIG way!

But the real elephant in the room needs addressing:

Namely the idea that pushing Tesla's competitors into bankruptcy harms the mission of transitioning the world to sustainable transport. This is a view that is common but very misguided. People that believe this must think it doesn't harm the mission for Toyota, VW, Ford, GM and others to continue pumping out millions of brand-new ICE vehicles each and every year that they are successfully able to forestall electrification of the industry. A first principles look at the issue will tell you that legacy competitors are the only entities with the capability to pump out millions of new ICE vehicles onto the roadways and that shutting them down greatly accelerates the transition to sustainable transport.

This should be obvious to all, but somehow, they have convinced a large contingency of people that they are vital to Tesla's mission. Nothing could be further from the truth! They did this by using their advertising dollars to create the impression they were ready, willing and able to go electric in a big way. GM is coming out with a gazillion brand new EV models by 2026 2026 2028? Nothing could be further from the truth! They are literally incapable of making EV's that can compete with their own ICE cars with scale (meaning profitably) for many years. That's how inefficient they are at manufacturing. Bankrupting legacy auto accelerates the transition to sustainable transport more than anything else I can conceive of, and it does it in an efficient manner by greatly reducing the number of orphaned assets that become worthless, or near worthless, as electrification progresses.

Nominated for Posts of Particular Merit (importance)

 

[scaesare]

I think this discussion could go a lot deeper, but the gist would be that we should probably be trying to replace trucks that are bought for towing and used for work (where towing ability might be a prerequisite for consideration) rather than vanity city cruisers who just go to and from the office.

Doing the math on this would probably be pretty interesting

Indeed it would be.

I think the issue is that one vehicle, the truck, is expected to do multiple things with minimal impact.... and may do the most taxing of those things (towing 3-4X it's own weight), only rarely, in the "average joe" scenario.

So an EV can be engineered to tow well, and be cost effective and efficient when doing so...witness the Tesla Semi. But how many people would buy a semi and only tow with it 3 times a year for trips, and then just use it as a daily driver. That's a lot of battery pack , ~900KWh, going to waste for everyday use.

Similarly, you could design a truck with a 350-400 KW pack that will tow that RV trailer just fine, but man that's overkill for grocery-getting, and there's gonna be some other tradeoffs for a daily driver: weight & space being two biggies.

It is an interesting problem....

 

[Electroman]

Dude this guy doesn't even have $8 a month to put towards a blue tick. Do you think his killing it in trading those charts?

Agreed. If he doesn't think Twitter is worth even $8 to get a blue-tick, then I am not sure how serious or worthy is his wisdom.

It is like emailing your resume from netzero.net domain or having a gmail/hotmail as your business email

 

[navguy12]

That can't be right. Mike Levine on Twitter is always posting how the Ford Lightening saves the day by charging Teslas, and powering stadiums, hospitals, and small towns during blackouts....

(I'm exaggerating a little)

I read the article twice before responding to the chap who sent it to me; the list of point by point FUD was as long as my arm.

Read the article; I think this is another one of those “hornets nests” that have been kicked since the Tesla price drops were announced.

 

[scaesare]

Look I agree, I’m just relaying what I hear all the time from people who complain about EVs range/towing and carrying capacity, but let’s get real here, is there a current EV on the market that could beat trucks like say a Ford F-150 or Ranger? a Toyota Tundra, Hi-Lux, Tacoma? I know people that drive trucks like these, and they tell me they won’t switch until EVs performance gets closer, I don’t drive these so I couldn’t care less, but here in Oz and in the US trucks are king, so it’s a pretty big deal..

There's going to be some use cases that EV's will be problematic for some time to come.

When gas cars first came on the scene, people still kept their horses to plow their fields even thought they had a Model T to drive to town. Eventually special-purpose gas vehicles to do the job were built: tractors. But the fraction of cases that couldn't be solved with the new tech of the time slowly dwindled as time went by...

 

[thesmokingman]

I agree most people don’t tow, but it’s a hot topic down here, it needs to improve before you can really sell it to people that it’s a better alternative to there ICE truck, we also have tradesmen that use trucks for work, they need to carry a lot of things from job to job, they don’t have time in the day to stop and charge for an hour or so, look I know the tech will improve no doubt, but right now it’s nowhere near it..

It's not a hot topic cuz like 5 guys do it, hyperbole sure but closer to reality than the above portrays it. If we think like this, let's pause the global transition to clean till we can appeal a huge minority. Right that totally makes sense, lol.

 

[Ogre]

Indeed it would be.

I think the issue is that one vehicle, the truck, is expected to do multiple things with minimal impact.... and may do the most taxing of those things (towing 3-4X it's own weight), only rarely, in the "average joe" scenario.

So an EV can be engineered to tow well, and be cost effective and efficient when doing so...witness the Tesla Semi. But how many people would buy a semi and only tow with it 3 times a year for trips, and then just use it as a daily driver. That's a lot of battery pack , ~900KWh, going to waste for everyday use.

Similarly, you could design a truck with a 350-400 KW pack that will tow that RV trailer just fine, but man that's overkill for grocery-getting, and there's gonna be some other tradeoffs for a daily driver: weight & space being two biggies.

It is an interesting problem....

I strongly suspect once the 500 mile CT is on the road this turns out to be a non-issue. The Rivian goes 100 miles then spends 45-60+ minutes charging. Cybertruck is likely to go 150-180 miles and will only need 15-20 minutes to recharge. Cybertruck might be a bit slower than ICE but not massively.

 

[MrMoo]

Agreed. If he doesn't think Twitter is worth even $8 to get a blue-tick, then I am not sure how serious or worthy is his wisdom.

It is like emailing your resume from netzero.net domain or having a gmail/hotmail as your business email

Lol, I don't want to rag on the guy too much but I think of it in 2 ways.

1. Fake it until you make it. If he has an opinion and wants people to listen to him he needs to look the part. No one is going to take trading tips from a guy using a grainy 480p camera posting a youtube video from their mums basement. The same goes for Twitter. The blue tick is the closest thing you can get to looking "fancy".

2. Exactly what you said. If you want to be taken seriously you need to put in some effort.

His providing short term trading charts. No one will act on them if he doesn't look like his succeeding.

The guy probably won't ever see the post, but he needs to invest a little in what his doing because there are plenty of people who do put money into presentation and I still take their opinions with a grain of salt.

 

[wipster]

Since we haven't started a new thread yet, gonna post this link here. Pretty cool example of how a battery powered travel trailer can seriously extend towing range:

Thor pushes forward with self-propelled electric camping trailer

The groundbreaking Dethleffs E.Home Coco camping trailer has taken another big step toward reality. Parent company Thor Industries and German automotive supplier ZF Friedrichshafen are teaming up to clear the hurdles that stand in the way of a viable production trailer that uses electric motive…

newatlas.com

Be sure to read it all the way through... talk about proof of concept!

 

[Cosmacelf]

I do wonder if trailers with their own battery packs/motors will get popular...

In a way, RV trailers have had this for a long time. Any decent sized RV has a pair of 12V trailer deep discharge batteries to power lights and incidentals. Along with a large propane bottle for refrigerator, heating and cooking. So having a an auxiliary battery pack on an RV trailer isn't a bad idea. You'd just need a standard battery interface between the trailer and vehicle, similar to the tow light connector now in use.

 

[wipster]

Since we haven't started a new thread yet, gonna post this link here. Pretty cool example of how a battery powered travel trailer can seriously extend towing range:

Thor pushes forward with self-propelled electric camping trailer

The groundbreaking Dethleffs E.Home Coco camping trailer has taken another big step toward reality. Parent company Thor Industries and German automotive supplier ZF Friedrichshafen are teaming up to clear the hurdles that stand in the way of a viable production trailer that uses electric motive…

newatlas.com

Be sure to read it all the way through... talk about proof of concept!

OK, started a thread in the Investor board called "Battery Powered Trailers" and also discovered some other trailers I had not heard of. Let's take any conversation there so we don't clutter this one.

 

[lafrisbee]

Yeah, yeah. And we all know ICE car owners who will never switch until they can make the once a year trip to Aunt Jane's on a single charge. Such people should be ignored. Once their friends have EVs and make it clear that their fears are all in their own imaginations, they'll change their tune.

Until then, there's no point in arguing (or caring

correct.
I found throughout my life that people lie more when talking about themselves....and the most when they talk of what they will do.