Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
Why do Xpeng and Nio track Tesla share price-wise?

The investment houses make certain assumptions about underlying variables (often hidden), which affect individual business sectors more or less (often less) as a group. So, absenct timely data, the effect of 'news' is spread out more or less (often more) evenly among all stocks in that bucket. This is the reason AAPL and MSFT often move in sync, and why 'tech' (read growth) stocks are more affected by interest rates than utilities. The exception are typically corporate quarterly earnings reports, and bear raids which target one particular equity (shortzes).
 
The SEC isn’t tackling NSS probably because their buddies in the industry don’t want it to change. The SEC needs a new head that actually cares about this.

U.S. SEC enforcement head resigns after five days on the job | REUTERS (Apr 28, 2021)


Col Kurtz.jpg


The new SEC Chairman Gary Ginsler has made a friend of horror. It's the only way he keeps his breakfast down.

Word.
 
.The Optimus robot will help, especially if it eventually results in more housing, a more even distribution of wealth, and more leisure time.

Optimus helping with child raising and housework should not be underestimated. Optimus helping with aging parents may mean a lot more free time.

Elon always has a knack of working on the right problems.
If individuals own the robots rather than some billionaires furthering their power leaving the regular unemployed behind.

This whole 'workers have more time' never pans out unless they own the production means themselves. If not they just become useless and get discarded.

Just look at all the homeless on the streets of Oakland and SF already today.
 
So re plans of Tesla opening the supercharger network to other brands. I believe there are now two V4 superchargers in the US. (Canada and Mexico seem to be only installing V3’s yet). Are either of the two new V4 superchargers CCS compatible. (I believe one is in Yuma and the other one in California). There seems to be an information vacuum on this.
I'm not aware of any V4 Supercharger installs yet. There is one rumored to be the first in Dateland, Arizona, but I haven't seen any progress on that site yet, beyond permits being issued about a month ago.
 
I'm not aware of any V4 Supercharger installs yet. There is one rumored to be the first in Dateland, Arizona, but I haven't seen any progress on that site yet, beyond permits being issued about a month ago.
Thanks for the reply. I asked the question on a separate thread and someone replied similar to you. I think I am misinformed on the whole V4 thing. I had read something that indicated there were two under construction but I think i either misunderstood or it was wrong.

Thanks.
 
I was at a Tesla store the other day. The sales person was trying to warm me up for a refresh Model X. I have a 2017 Model X with FSD. I asked the sales person about a trade in and they would not entertain that and advised me to go private.

I was thinking about this and it gave me concerns about the whole FSD to Robotaxi route. If Tesla is so certain about Robotaxi being not too long away, why are the not hoarding cars right now and even pick-up trade-ins that can be used as such. This would allow Tesla to have a whole fleet ready to deploy when time comes. Yet the don’t.

if Tesla thinks FSD is so valuable, why are they not treating it as such? Elon mentioned many times Tesla with FSD would be an appreciating asset but Tesla itself does not treat it as such in practice. A great way to boost sales is to five 100% credit on FSD when trading in. This way Tesla would have a sale immediately and have a car in stock, to be used as soon as Robotaxi is a thing.

This whole experience makes me pause about Robotaxi and Elon’s talk about Tesla being an appreciating asset.
 
I was at a Tesla store the other day. The sales person was trying to warm me up for a refresh Model X. I have a 2017 Model X with FSD. I asked the sales person about a trade in and they would not entertain that and advised me to go private.

I was thinking about this and it gave me concerns about the whole FSD to Robotaxi route. If Tesla is so certain about Robotaxi being not too long away, why are the not hoarding cars right now and even pick-up trade-ins that can be used as such. This would allow Tesla to have a whole fleet ready to deploy when time comes. Yet the don’t.

if Tesla thinks FSD is so valuable, why are they not treating it as such? Elon mentioned many times Tesla with FSD would be an appreciating asset but Tesla itself does not treat it as such in practice. A great way to boost sales is to five 100% credit on FSD when trading in. This way Tesla would have a sale immediately and have a car in stock, to be used as soon as Robotaxi is a thing.

This whole experience makes me pause about Robotaxi and Elon’s talk about Tesla being an appreciating asset.
In short, the mission isn't a sprint it is a marathon. The mission is better served by making a dedicated robotaxi vehicle as opposed to buying back used vehicles.
 
This really tells the reality that TSLA is an ideal target for the unclothed vendors.
In times past I may have mentioned that in 1973 as a very freshly minted banker (Very fresh, I'd joined them direct from graduate school a few months earlier) I was, with other new colleagues, sent to look at DTC from an operational perspective. Why, I don't know, my bosses bosses boss seemed to want to say they'd looked a bit. Skipping every detail, DTC was better than the bizarre 19th century habits preceding it, but had very minimal controls. I was not competent to say anything critical, given the only experience I had was some amazing seminars with Wall Street types and two memorable one in the early stages of the Oil Shock, and one two years earlier is Nixon quite the gold standard. Perhaps that background was why they chose me.

The real shock was that no person I met at a senior level had even a vague clue about DTC rules nor even exactly how anything worked. Operations was beneath them. Thus, market makers ('whatever they are" from a renowned CEO on hearing our report) made the rules.

Everything that is important to us is not a secret at all, just excruciating. As much as people justifiably abhor the Madoff Rule, the reality is even stranger.

Honestly if anybody really wants to know exactly how the manipulators both generate volatility and profit from it. TSLA has every characteristic to encourage manipulation, beginning with a large, gullible, indecent thinking retail base that can be conned into accepting quantitative analysis foibles without examination, precisely because they do not know the details.

Here they are:

Last comment. In my humble opinion this cannot be really understood without going into all the details.

Subsets that also show why short selling will not stop and why no real investor protections exist:
-securities lending-read the details, otherwise you'll miss it.
-Custody and Master Trust- lose Global Custody and Global Master trust and lose the giants.
- clearing and settlement are the secret sauce for all of this. That is why Depository Trust Company is at the heart fo the matter.
This is all crucial to understanding how retail investors should evaluate the manner of investing in any US listed security, but especially TSLA.
After understanding DTC in all it's arcane glory, the next is CBOE, which even promotes itself as "The Home of Volatility Trading". That is even more obscure than is DTC and equally fascinating. I will not comment further on that one.


There are quite a few of us in TMC who have been directly involved in these processes.
For every one of us there is a 'tell', we all fairly beg people to have nothing to do with any derivative, option or future, not even margin (explicitly margin account- opening one lets your own shares to be involved in this with or without your knowledge, even though you can usually make a modest gain by officially lending your shares. Why that is so is another long arcane set of rules ending with the word 'custody'.

Anybody thinking about anything other than HODL should realize that dealing in US securities speculations is NOT in any way analogous to Casino gambling. Why? Casinos have strong and specific regulations everywhere they operate and are subject to serious regulatory oversight. The US securities markets are 'self'regulated' by intent. History is littered with Teapot Dome, The Great Depression, the Gold Standard, Oil Shock, 2008... all of those were provided courtesy of securities and banking industry lack of effective regulation.

If anybody really wants to know the nauseating list of banking, brokerage, processor and investment banking failures I personally have worked on in my four decades of all that I can discuss the non-NDA cases via PM with appropriate validation, including an NDA from me.
I mention that only because I really detest for people I like and respect to be harmed by avoidable risks.

I am writing this today because several people close to em have lost their life savings in the bankruptcy of Lojas Americanas, one which was also perfectly predictable in which highly competent billionaires did not pay attention to their own data. FWIW, a relative who was involved got out without undue harm. I cannot help but beg people to take only risks they understand and to, even then, do it very safely, i.e. HODL and watch every detail. TMC helps do that for TSLA, for which I am very grateful.
I really like your bit saying that things like options trading gives casino gambling a bad name,
since casinos are better regulated! It's been a while since I studied Regulation SHO, the Madoff
"market-maker exception", T+2 clearing (so now they changed it from T+3 I see -- should it go to T+1 or better?)

I used to "invest" (read gamble) in biotech stocks, which were really gamed by the shorts, understandably
because they always needed $$ to fund the next clinical trial. This mostly via stock dilution (either
favorably straightforward when there was excellent news, but more often via sneaky "below-market discount"
offers, more nastily via "pipe" (Public Investment in Private Equity) tricks. I survived partly by not investing
much until phase 2 clinical trials were passed.

I'm sure you must have opinions about the defects these days of:


For me, seeing the recent testimony of options trader Littleton during the SF Tesla trial was eye-opening.

Here was a dude who was so sure of himself coming from a career in commodity futures trading where
you make delta-neutral hedges on often boring stuff like corn and soybeans. I heard somewhere that
rookies to the (now obsolete) open-outcry pits in Chicago were trained by trading nothing but soybeans
for awhile until they got sick of it.

Back to Littleton, he fell in lust with Tesla, and thought his mid-western commodity-trading skills
were transferable to trading TSLA. (He'd never own shares long or short due to TSLA volatility,
thinking he could always hedge his way out of it.) When he talked to the trial lawyers and
the jury a few feet way about "following the greeks" on his trading platform, it must have
been a big yawn to them. Now, because I don't do derivatives (anymore), I wonder if he was completely
flummoxed when the 420 tweet seemed to fix a price which worked against his longish bent.

Perhaps this is all in McMillan's options tome, but maybe he could've saved himself with some
synthetic iron condor/butterfly spread, beyond my pay grade. In commodities, there seems to be
some basic fluidity to roll with, but can anyone drive everyone out by "cornering the market" at a fixed
near-term price? I do remember the silver market cornering attempt by the Hunt brothers in
the 1980s, but that was like a short-squeeze which couldn't last.

Back to the Tesla trial, yesterday the plaintiffs brought forward a possibly more jury-sympathetic
erstwhile loser in the guise of a Mr. Fries, presenting him as a regular "family guy" helping to put
three kids thru college. He, after "waiting for a good entry point" waffling about owning
Tesla shares in 2017, leaped at the opportunity to buy the day after the 420-tweet,
plunking down for 50 TSLA shares, ~$18,500 at the time. He said he sold for about
a $5K loss (in September, not during the next week when TSLA just faded back to relative
pre-privatization "normal"). Asked why he was there on the stand, he sheepishly admitted
that the class-action law firm recruited him via a survey ad, heard his grievance that the loss
to avenge was entirely due to Musk, and he wanted to be made whole again. Apparently the
class-action sharks specifically select "lead plaintiffs" from the responses, paying plane fare
to/from the trial but no consulting fees as they do for expert witnesses (like the $19,500 per
hour professor who was next on the stand.)

Holy moly, will the jury really think that damages, if any, must be set as if no one had individual
responsibility at all for their trades? (What's that in legal parlance, "assumed risk",
or "contributory negligence", or just extra-legal old-fashioned gullibility?)
Is Mr. Musk a Svengali, whose every tweet is gospel? As a largely-socialist Tesla driver, I
hopefully differentiate Elon's Twitter-sphere persona from the Tesla-sphere...

At any rate, thanx for your perceptive commentary which inspired this post.
 
Last edited:
In short, the mission isn't a sprint it is a marathon. The mission is better served by making a dedicated robotaxi vehicle as opposed to buying back used vehicles.
In addition there was a time where all Model 3 vehicles under lease had to be returned to Tesla, and Model 3 is better suited to being a Robotaxi than Model X.

I would probably aim for something like the following Robotaxi fleet mix:-
  • Specialised Gen3 Robotaxi - 85%
  • Model 3/Y - 7%
  • Cybertruck (moving stuff) - 4%
  • Model X (6-7 seats) - 3%
  • Model S (luxury travel) - 1%
Groups of more than 5 passengers would be relatively rare, or could use multiple vehicles,

Model X has a niche accommodating 6-7 passengers in comfort.

Cybertruck has a valuable niche moving large objects, or a large amount of stuff.

Aside from that, customers mostly want a workhorse Robotaxi for 1-5 passengers.
 
If we can pause endless rehashing of the same old political conversations, here’s something else to ponder.

Tesla Energy’s opportunity is a direct function of the total addressable market for kWh of electricity. We also need to stop, in Elon’s words, “the dumbest experiment in history” of rapidly increasing the CO2 concentration in our atmosphere and oceans, and we need to do this as quickly as possible. Oil and gas are mostly used for burning, but our civilization’s sustainability is also threatened by our utter reliance on mined hydrocarbons for chemical production.

It doesn’t have to be this way much longer. Synthetic hydrocarbon production from CO2 capture and solar power can solve both of these problems and I believe the capital markets have not done the math on the gigantic amount of demand for electricity this will create once solar and battery power reach sufficiently low prices. We already today have the ability to remove CO2 from the atmosphere, but the fundamental reason why all solutions thus far have failed economically is that CO2 at 420 ppm needs a lot of energy to be captured and an order of magnitude more energy to be ripped apart and reassembled into useful products like methane or ethylene. Doing this with renewable energy such that the overall process is carbon-negative has been prohibitively expensive.

Has been. If we extrapolate the solar and battery cost trends another 5-10 years out, in certain markets we will reach a tipping point—a disruption moment—in which synthetic hydrocarbon production will be cheaper than fossil-derived sourcing of the same chemicals. IRA subsidies for clean energy, clean hydrogen production and carbon sequestration suddenly pulled this schedule forward for American production by several years, maybe even by a decade. Likewise did the invasion of Ukraine and boycotting of Russian gas for European production.

But the plot is thicker. Interestingly, there is a single US state endowed with all of the following:
  • Strong sunshine
  • Abundant cheap, flat land
  • The fastest rate of solar power development in the nation
  • The biggest hydrocarbon chemical sector in the nation
  • Eastward-facing coastline that’s nearly at tropical latitudes
  • Deepwater ports to the Atlantic Ocean ideal for shipping
  • The headquarters of every Musk company including Tesla and SpaceX
Texas.

Texas and its Gulf Coast neighbor Louisiana account for a whopping 70% of American primary petrochemical production according to the US government in this report.

View attachment 898156

Was this opportunity to advance sustainability and make even more money an unsaid reason in favor of moving Tesla and SpaceX to Texas? I don’t know because Elon has never mentioned this in public to my knowledge. However, I do know that SpaceX is already getting involved in direct air capture of CO2, water electrolysis to produce green hydrogen; and Sabatier reactors in order to produce methane for rocket fuel. This is required for sustainable rocket fuel on Earth, but it will also be required from Day 1 of fuel production on Mars, because Mars has no natural gas. I also would note that the Musk Foundation has offered a $100M prize for carbon capture technology, indicating Elon is thinking about this and believes it’s very important.

The big question in my mind is, will SpaceX just stop at making methalox fuel, or will they (or their sister company Tesla) expand deeper downstream in this vertical by making stuff out of the methane? Methane and hydrogen are commodities and there’s nothing special nor unique about rocket fuel methane or the hydrogen used to synthesize it. With methane and hydrogen as building blocks, any hydrocarbon chemicals can be assembled. In fact this basic chemistry is how biologists believe life on Earth began, in deep-sea thermal vents where photosynthesis was impossible and there was no other source of chemical energy. For human industrial production, it would likely come from Fischer-Tropsch synthesis. The implication for the role it must play in a hypothetical self-sustaining civilization on Mars is obvious, which is why I still think SpaceX has got to be thinking about this for the long-term plans. Their mission requires refinement of this technology to have any practical chance of success. How else could a Martian colony produce its own fuels, plastics, fertilizers, lubricants, pharmaceuticals and everything else an advanced civilization needs to survive and terraform an entire planet?

SpaceX also needs enormous amounts of capital to fund this development. They hope to make big bucks from Starlink and from orbital transportation services, but these markets are tiny in comparison to the opportunity in the chemicals sector. At some point, money might be the limiting factor on making humanity a multiplanetary species.

Terraform Industries is the most credible startup outside SpaceX in my opinion and they are openly pursuing these goals for chemical production for something other than just Starship flights. They released a new white paper today with a lot more numbers and technical detail.


I hope some of you, especially the scientists and engineers, will read it closely and tell me if it’s as technically and economically feasible as it sounds. I have not seen analysis from any other TSLA investors except me on this topic and it’s such a humongous long-term opportunity if it actually is viable. On the other hand, I’m wondering if batteries will be irrelevant to this industry. Terraform’s white paper indicates that they’ll only be operating the hydrolyzers during daylight hours. If steady 24/7 operation is not the goal then this might not mean much for Megapack demand in the coming decades.

Here is their basic thesis which I currently believe is probably correct:


I even think that that last bullet point is probably right on. This industry at scale might use the majority of the world’s electricity in the future. Why is no one talking about this?
I have looked at this but not deeply. I don’t get the synthetic fuels. Any approach involving combustion is a nonstarter vs clean, simple, efficient electric motors.
 
I have looked at this but not deeply. I don’t get the synthetic fuels. Any approach involving combustion is a nonstarter vs clean, simple, efficient electric motors.
I'd say we are at least 30 years from synthetic hydrocarbons formed from direct carbon capture CO2 and H2 from hydrolysis being cost competitive with geologically formed hydrocarbons.
 
I was at a Tesla store the other day. The sales person was trying to warm me up for a refresh Model X. I have a 2017 Model X with FSD. I asked the sales person about a trade in and they would not entertain that and advised me to go private.

Simple. Tesla adds FSD to most used Tesla's which gives them tremendous profitability. Since you already have FSD on that Model X, it's more profitable for you to sell it privately, and not a missed opportunity for Tesla.

As for the rest, do you not have FSD Beta on your Model X? The technical progress is obvious to anywone who is actually USING the software. Your concerns about prospects for future progress sound more like distilled FUD than any technical issue.

TL;dr It'll take as long as it takes to create FSD, the path is clearly toward successful completion. That FSD timeline is unrelated to the used car business.
 
Options are risky.

You could even lose 70% of your account value in a year.
Depending on how one does them the losses can easily exceed 100%. Long Term Capital Management Nobel prize winners managed that one. Those who only lose 70% are actually lucky in comparison to serious players/s
 
As for the rest, do you not have FSD Beta on your Model X? The technical progress is obvious to anywone who is actually USING the software.
I get to experience the "technical progress" on both of my Teslas whenever I drive them. I can sum up the past year as three steps forward, two steps back. In my Silicon Valley suburban neighborhood, FSD Beta drives worse than it did at this time last year. But we have an FSD thread for this, right?
 
The problem as I see it is that the CEO criticisms tend to be for specific events and not the aggregate performance - a lot of the commentary is rating every swing of the bat (or maybe even a bad season) and if there are a few clangers in quick succession he's called a terrible batsman and we need fresh blood in the team - but looking at career stats he's up there with the absolute greats. I give him a lot of latitude for swings I don't agree with precisely because he's achieved things I will never achieve and couldn't hope to.

I'm reading The Founders book about the founders of PayPal at the moment and there's a lot of poor swings by Elon in the X.com era mentioned, yet he adapted and created a giant company (along with other brilliant founders). Even with poor swings he's hit more 6's that nearly anyone else, and tends to do so at the times they are really needed.

Some examples:
  • First 100% owned China plant - Who besides Elon could have had the will and skill to have navigated that political environment
  • Getting Panasonic to make a big leap into cells at GigaNevada
  • Making the world believe EVs are a real option
  • The decision to go for Gigacasting - which is acknowledged to be Elon's
  • Not being scared to drop vehicle prices by $10k and put the hurt on the competition while driving the mission forward - most other CEOs would probably cut volume to protect margins
So when people want another CEO, who else can we choose that we can rely on to step up to the wicket when the game is on the line and knock it over the fence. Ross Gerber?

Apologies for the cricket analogy.
.. some more examples:
  • The decision to go alone on selling and servicing Teslas without succumbing to the NADA mafia.
  • The bold decision to kick out Mobile Eye in order to march faster towards the long term goal of FSD
  • The decision to open the first Giga factory, when the conventional wisdom said batteries are commodities and it is best left to the "experts' who specialize in manufacturing them for decades.
  • The decision to go for thousands of small cylindrical batteries when the industry was doing much bigger pouch cells.
Every one of these decisions were crucial for Tesla to succeed to where it is today. Even in of one of those decisions if Tesla had taken a different route, they would have lost the race.
 
Last edited:

Technical analyst Carter Worth breaks down Tesla’s next move

CNBC - after close Friday:

I find these types of analysis trying to unearth some future trends and direction based on past trends just by looking at the graph, pretty silly and useless. I can conjure up any kind of future just playing with my finger on wiggly lines on a magic touch screen .