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No offense, but I don't want to assume for arguments sake that Tesla is lying about their FSD. The very reason why Tesla brought Bannon and Karpathy into the limelight is because that kind of people are not capable of lying about their life's main activity.

I have (in other parts of computing) worked with similarly world-class competent people and I can imagine how e.g. financial analysts with their different background are completely unconvinced by reasoning such as mine.

But I don't think that is a reason to consider the (hypothetical) scenario where Tesla is lying to its investors about its progress.

Because they are not.
I was simply trying to take the worst possible assumptions that the TSLAQ crowd might come up with and show that Tesla still wins. Not making the statement that I think they are true. Devil's advocate all the way here.

Dan
 
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Plus half of S/X sales missing ..

I warned about it:



Not advice! :D
Yes, but the financial effect of these things was obvious to anyone who glanced at the deliveries report. It has been known information for quite a while now. Seeing that expected financial effect in the Q1 ER should not cause any new effect on the stock unless it becomes clear that more such problems are expected in Q2. If Tesla is clear that the situation is markedly improved now in Q2, the stock may actually go up rather than down. Of course, the shorts will also do everything they can to try to establish a negative market response regardless. What is not known is margins and unexpected sources of income (FSD, FCA payment) as well as Q2 sales and production. I think the market response will mostly hinge on those unknowns and Q2 progress/projections.
 
Nobody knows. Hope one of the analyst will ask on ER. Assuming the worst FCA want to cause the max damage. They wait till end of the year, or end of 2020.
It seems FCA agreement starts in 2020 because "Beginning next year, new European Commission rules begin to phase in that require a car maker's fleet-wide emissions to average no higher than 95g/CO2/km"

So, unlikely to impact 2019.
 
So if we believe these estimates then the Tesla chip is already comfortably beyond the NN processing power of the human brain, by a factor of ~8x.

But if we accept that "legally safe driving" requires only a very small subset of the vast amount of data a human brain stores, then the Tesla AI chip can already do an order of magnitude better job, with vastly superior control latencies.

Based on what I see everyday "legally safe driving" requires 1-2 brain cells dangling from a piece of dental floss suspended in a large oval box. So yes, Tesla has already won. Too bad the analysts use 4-5 cells on 2 pieces of floss.

A cruise car took me off the line about ten minutes ago, seems they are at least driving faster than anticipated.
 
To put it bluntly, they're specialists and I'm a generalist.

As a generalist, you need to have a couple simple questions in mind: if I summon a car to get me places, and there's a car in the fleet nearby, will it be able to get to me? Will it take me where I need to go? My vacuum cleaner kicks off at 1pm every day. It got a lot of space to deal with, pretty complicated too. Yeah it gets stuck here and there, so maybe twice a month I have to pull it from somewhere and take it to its charging base. Would I go back to hiring someone to clean the place just because it fails ~7% of the time? Hell no, this is good enough and I'm sure in the 3 years since I got this vac, they came up with something that would only fail 1% of the time, once a quarter maybe. Same here, as long as these FSD cars aren't presenting a safety hazard, even if they're not perfect the added safety and economic value is so overwhelming that dealing with a few glitches here and there is going to be well worth it.

I can tell you what would have changed my opinion. A presentation on the driving policy part of the stack which demonstrated development of some more difficult part of driving -- something humans frequently get wrong. Before the presentation, I actually thought they were further along than they are, believe it or not...

They did, actually. Humans suck at changing lanes in traffic. They could have spent enormous amounts of time developing traditional imperative software to make lane changes. Instead they are training a predictor that takes in gobs of real-life lane change examples, successful and not, and once trained will be capable of reliably calling a lane change to the "driving policy" layer as you call it to execute on it. You can also set the confidence level from the predictive layer with which you want the policy layer to act on a lane change.
 
I can't keep up with this thread anymore, so I apologize if this was already mentioned. What if in addition to S/3/X cars, they eventually add Semi's as well to the TN? Think about how that could possibly disrupt the trucking industry. It may take a long time until it impacted interstate and intermodal transport, but it would be very interesting for local trucking.
They certainly will. There are plenty of companies that contract out freight services. This would be the same. Tesla Semi pulls up to your factory, you load it, it drives to your customer who then unloads it. No driver, no mandatory DOT breaks, no lot lizards...

Disruption is not easy to predict. We expect Uber and GM to be disrupted, but what about Trains? Trains are far cheaper than trucking, but slow. If FSD trucks drop trucking costs by half it's possible that friggin TRAINS will be disrupted. Fuel is 39% of trucking costs, driver's are 26%. So there we go, if EV trucks are twice as efficient then now trucking is 50% cheaper.
The Real Cost of Trucking - Per Mile Operating Cost of a Commercial Truck - TruckersReport.com

15.6 cents per ton mile is current trucking price 15.6 cents at 19% discount + 26% discount = 8.58 cents.
5.1 centers per mile is the train price

So for 3 cents a mile more you don't have to worry about train timelines, being located near train yards, ancillary costs of shipping from train yard to destination etc. Shipping times go from about 2 weeks via train (taken from auto shipping times) down to 24 hours or so.

Heck, now that I've looked into this, if you are long TSLA you should be short on rail. Wow. Maybe this is a case of sophomoric wisdom, but this is a BFD guys.
http://www.iemonitor.com/files/CBO freight costs.pdfsa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwj5qcqLnufhAhUIIKwKHV21DEIQFjAAegQIAhAC&url=http://www.iemonitor.com/files/CBO%20freight%20costs.pdf&usg=AOvVaw0QrWAVT6FmWdyHX8WQRCgf
 
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FYI, as someone with some math / CS background, I didn't think they went very deep. The only thing on the software side which started to go deep was the one slide of the neural network architecture (the one which looks like a flowchart), which was too small to read. This was a broad architectural outline, nothing more. At this level of generality, it's also really the only possible architecture. There were a few details scattered here and there, but nothing trade-secret-like.

(OK, "some math/CS background" may be an understatement. I only have a bachelor's degree in math, but both my parents are math professors and I've studied all kinds of random math and CS stuff extracurricularly, so I actually have absorbed an awful lot of stuff from the "atmosphere" around me.)
Can you point to some other investor presentation that has talked about picojoules for different operations in SRAM? Ideally from an automotive company.
 
They certainly will. There are plenty of companies that contract out freight services. This would be the same. Tesla Semi pulls up to your factory, you load it, it drives to your customer who then unloads it. No driver, no mandatory DOT breaks, no lot lizards...

Disruption is not easy to predict. We expect Uber and GM to be disrupted, but what about Trains? Trains are far cheaper than trucking, but slow. If FSD trucks drop trucking costs by half it's possible that friggin TRAINS will be disrupted. Fuel is 39% of trucking costs, driver's are 26%. So there we go, if EV trucks are twice as efficient then now trucking is 50% cheaper.
The Real Cost of Trucking - Per Mile Operating Cost of a Commercial Truck - TruckersReport.com

15.6 cents per ton mile is current trucking price 15.6 cents at 19% discount + 26% discount = 8.58 cents.
5.1 centers per mile is the train price

So for 3 cents a mile more you don't have to worry about train timelines, being located near train yards, ancillary costs of shipping from train yard to destination etc. Shipping times go from about 2 weeks via train (taken from auto shipping times) down to 24 hours or so.

Heck, now that I've looked into this, if you are long TSLA you should be short on rail. Wow. Maybe this is a case of sophomoric wisdom, but this is a BFD guys.
http://www.iemonitor.com/files/CBO freight costs.pdfsa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwj5qcqLnufhAhUIIKwKHV21DEIQFjAAegQIAhAC&url=http://www.iemonitor.com/files/CBO%20freight%20costs.pdf&usg=AOvVaw0QrWAVT6FmWdyHX8WQRCgf
As I said, way before robotaxi in cities, let's have semi platoon first!
 
Well, about that... Waymo already went live. Of course, that deafening thunder you are not hearing is the sound of all those people who need a cab service that can only pick them up from fixed stops (you know, like a bus), follow certain routes (you know, like a bus) and drop them off at fixed stops (... you get the point). The sole advantage to the bus is you don't have to share space with the hoi polloi.

Taxis have designated drop zones in some areas - airports, high end hotels, etc. Are they buses?

The rider report I posted clearly said Waymo picks up and drops off everywhere in the geofence except for a few areas with designated zones. How is a robotaxi that comes to your house, or your friend's house where you've been watching the game, or a restaurant or wherever 4-6 minutes after you request it a "bus"?

Waymo backing off of driverless is a big deal. Possibly a deal breaker. But this crap about fixed locations and routes is delusional, and delusion is rarely a successful investing strategy.
 
Well, about that... Waymo already went live. Of course, that deafening thunder you are not hearing is the sound of all those people who need a cab service that can only pick them up from fixed stops (you know, like a bus), follow certain routes (you know, like a bus) and drop them off at fixed stops (... you get the point). The sole advantage to the bus is you don't have to share space with the hoi polloi.

The Bolt beat the M3 to market, sure. And it had no impact on the sale or profitability of the M3.

Waymo has beaten Tesla to the taxi market (well, to the not-a-bus market, anyway). I don't expect it to have any impact on Tesla's "ride sharing" network (if that ever comes to pass) because its very design means that it cannot scale. And, in any case, it is only for those who will pay a premium to avoid a bus, but won't use a taxi or similar service. Meh.

[as @Nocturnal pointed out, Waymo's service isn't actually autonomous. I can't believe I left that out. But other than the implication what I wrote was accurate: I referred to "bus service" vs "taxi"]
I'm predicting a driverless taxi service by waymo before Tesla's.

Comparison to Bolt was deliberate - I don't think waymo will have much success, just like Bolt.
 
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Taxis have designated drop zones in some areas - airports, high end hotels, etc. Are they buses?

The rider report I posted clearly said Waymo picks up and drops off everywhere in the geofence except for a few areas with designated zones. How is a robotaxi that comes to your house, or your friend's house where you've been watching the game, or a restaurant or wherever 4-6 minutes after you request it a "bus"?

Waymo backing off of driverless is a big deal. Possibly a deal breaker. But this crap about fixed locations and routes is delusional, and delusion is rarely a successful investing strategy.
I'd be curious to see what geo-fencing the top 50 cities would be in terms of total ride share market share. If you can access 70% of the market with just those metro areas, would they bother with the rest? Although I suppose the government would mandate access along the lines of how utilities are required to provide access in rural areas.
 
AIs aren't going to REPLACE DOCTORS, which is what the other person to whom I was responding was claiming. We flat out don't know enough about the human body yet. You can't train a neural net or an expert system when you don't really know what you're doing either; "computerized exploratory science" is in its infancy. Might replace specialists in some fairly cut-and-dried areas.

Not to get too off topic on this, but let me use the doctors example to help illustrate that the issue with machine learning isn't in the capability of the neural network, but in the paradigm space that humans trying to train it operate in (i.e. are you asking the right question?) and in the quality of a training set.

If you could quantify a good chunk of critical data about a person, such as:
1. Genome
2. Lifestyle stuff: diet, predominant world view and psychological states, sleeping habits, envoronment, etc
3. Gut biome
4. Historical data on lifestyle, injuries, medications taken, past traumatic events, etc.
5. Current comprehensive blood, urine, stool, fMRI, whatever else tests that can be done
6. A bunch of other stuff I can't think of now

..then you add labeling to this dataset. Someone shows up at the doc and we do 1-6, they get a diagnosis and a prescription and then they die within half a year. Or they recover. Or they don't do what the prescription says and do something else, and have a different outcome.

So you stuff all of this into a training dataset. And I bet you will start getting things that will make a lot of people real uncomfortable, but also creepy accurate. Like "stop eating cookies or die in 23 month". "Decreased life span if take this antibiotic by 3 years, not going to help with the current symptom. Go to Hawaii instead, healed in 3 weeks". "Divorce or heart attack in 3.4 years".

Our use of machine learning is limited by how well can we present real world conditions and outcomes to it. Sure, currently we do stuff like train to be able to classify cancer by image. But that is only because we haven't learned (or, as I think would soon be the case, are dis-incentivesed to even try) to collect more representative data in more dimensions and train bigger NN's with those bigger datasets.

For self-driving, overwhelming majority of the overall problem can be broken down into well understood classification and prediction sub-problems and solved with an appropriately big and representative training set. Which is what Tesla is doing, and have gotten fairly far along that road. Driving is a lot simpler than medicine, but that is not to say medicine can't be much better solved by machine learning. Same thing applies: it's a huge multiplier when you can train one "uber-doctor" on all the corner cases that any one doctor would never ever be able to see in their lifetime, not even 1%. And also train that doctor without any preconceived notions of what should and should not work, that would consider any solution. Same with humans and driving. Except driving is something that won't encounter all sorts of moral and other ways humans will resist acknowledging reality, which I fully expect to happen in the case of medicine. Drove from A to B, no accidents, reasonable speed -- all good, we're on board.
 
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Elon liked a tweet with this video, where Former Google/Waymo/Uber star self-driving engineer Andrew Levandowski said: the reason he is not using LiDAR anymore is because “not that there is any restrictions on LiDAR (from Google), but I do have restriction, personally, of not doing things that I know that aren’t gonna work”.

It only have 500 views so I guess it’s not shared here yet.

I have long suspected that Elon's dissing of lidar comes from his super big ego.

I was wrong then.

FYI, there is another reason he doesnt like Lidar. He isnt allowed to work on it. lol


According to a February 2017 lawsuit filed by Waymo, the autonomous vehicle research subsidiary of Alphabet Inc, Levandowski allegedly "downloaded 9.7 GB of Waymo’s highly confidential files and trade secrets, including blueprints, design files and testing documentation"[22][23] before resigning to found Otto.[24][25]

In March 2017, United States District Judge William Haskell Alsup, referred the case to federal prosecutors after Levandowski exercised his Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination.[26] In May 2017, Judge Alsup ordered Levandowski to refrain from working on Otto's Lidar and required Uber to disclose its discussions on the technology.[27] Levandowski was later fired by Uber for failing to cooperate in an internal investigation.[7]


here's a quick history:

  • Worked on Ghostrider, an autonomous motorcycle for a DARPA challenge
  • Got hired by Google to work on Street view
  • Started working on Google's self-driving cars, did a lot of work on LIDARs, became the engineer behind Google's self-driving effort
  • Started having secret meetings & chats with Travis Kalanick, then CEO of Uber
  • Downloaded almost 10GB of confidential files from Waymo, right before he quit
  • Founded Otto and Otto trucking, startups developing self-driving technology (that also use LIDAR)
  • Got acquired by Uber for $680 million after 6 months of development
  • Became the center figure in the Waymo vs Uber lawsuit, where Uber was accused of having stolen Waymo's LIDAR tech
  • Pleaded the 5th throughout the entire trial
  • Was barred from working on Lidar, and later fired from Uber (on the judge's orders) due to failure to cooperate
Now the technology he worked 15 years on and can't touch without getting sued into oblivion "isn't really required".
 
I'm not up for trying to dig up a citation, but if memory serves what I'm talking about was using the then-popular term, "expert system" which was better at ranking diagnoses. Years (decades? I lose track) ago this was done, but the medical profession is a bit too... defensive... to accept the use of diagnostic aids.

Well, I'm not that close to health care anymore, but to caveat I wouldn't be surprised if this hasn't filtered up in some fashion that is less direct than the doctor-omniscience threatening computer diagnosis simply because of how long ago what I'm talking about referred to. But I have had doctors who plainly just googled the symptoms. Oh, I'm sorry, looked it up on webmd. Sigh. (how do I know, because they said. And I wondered what I was paying them for...)

In other words, this is exactly the right approach. Funny how it parallels driver assistance :)
I once went to the Australian equivalent of Urgent Care for an annoying persistent cough, which I eventually concluded was pertussis (whooping cough). The doctor insisted it was viral, and despite the fact that I don't believe in taking antibiotics unnecessarily, I convinced him to prescribe them for me. He called me back a few hours later and admitted that he googled it and I was right. I recovered soon after.
 
For the longest time, I fully agreed with this view.

But now that I've finished watching the full presentation, beginning to end, my conclusion is this: I am certain every word that was spoken on that stage will prove to have been the literal truth. This was no technical presentation; it was a prophecy. I am now of the opinion that Tesla actually implemented, by hand, the first superhuman AI instance able to operate on the physical world at global scale, all at the turn of a switch. Right now. The dawn of MAGI (Manual Artificial General Intelligence), so to speak.

One has to be high to believe this, so I believe it.
Sorry for my disagree, looked like you were only missing that one card to have the full deck ;)
 
There's a @verygreen video about rain performance of Autopilot:
I actually have some footage at night in torrential rain when even human traffic slowed down to like 40mph where they normally go 80. I've just been to lazy to process it. Perhaps one of those days.

AP was not engaging for some time, but once it did - it did a good enoug hjob of staying in lane and mostly not doing anything stupid (once tried to dive for an exit, otherwise mostly unremarkable).
 
To expand on this to the laymen. This is a general knowledge for ASIC designer from back in my day. The data from on die SRAM (talking about writing to a sram here) usually takes about 4 clock cycles to settle down. Because a gate at the RTL level act as a capacitor and the charging of such capacitors from 0 to 1 or the discharging from 1 to 0 is not a smooth curve, if you look at it under the oscilloscope, it actually oscillates between 0 and 1 quite frequently. So the solution to that is to wait for a safe minimum of 4 clock cycle for it to settle in theory 99.99999999% of the time. There's always that 0.00000000001% of the time where it is still oscillating. I've experienced once porting the same IP to a smaller node process and the instability wait time actually increased. So this is a problem that gets bigger when new lithography process gets introduced.

Where as numbers in the register inside the cpu can be generally trusted to be used on the next clock cycle. Now if we are to bring in data off chip. The wait is so long and inefficient that it is usually relegated to loading of preset data only. Like the loading of ROM or an image file or a song.

Metastability issues in synchonous SRAM? I thought the delays were needed due to address decode/ propagation.