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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

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Personally, I don't care what their specs are. If I can't buy an EV which is fun to drive as any Tesla, one which I can drive anywhere in the US and have as robust a charging infrastructure as Tesla,
I. Don't. Care.

This reminds me of the specs argument with PCs, game systems, phones, etc.

What truly matters is the end user experience. Whether it’s better games, ease of use, less crashing, more functionality, etc. ie....software, I would say is at least, if not more important than hardware.

Specs initially might help sell and are easy to quantify. But in the long run, the end user experience is what will truly drive sales.
 
I think that very few people who buy Jeeps are "off-roaders". The ones that are, make up the minority. But, all those Jeeps are dressed up with huge tires and absolutely no concern for efficiency. It is all in the mind of the buyer, (I know, my wife has a Model X and still wants a Jeep Renegade). Fantasy sells cars. Likely the Tesla T(ruck) will pull some of these buyers. But yah, EV's would be superior rock crawlers.

FSD applied learning from an expert Jeep rock crawling jockey, would be incredibly fun. pointless but ridiculously popular. I can imagine concrete parks in cities where people "rock climb" like a skateboard park.

When FSD learns to "drift",we can expect a jump in sales as well.

Jeep has pretend off-road vehicles, but Jeep Wrangler Rubicons are all about off-road. Sure, some buy these beasts for status, but they are designed for crawling up and down steep hills and big boulders. I have a nice one I picked up used from a local Jeep rental place (LOTS of great Jeep trails in AZ), and I use it only for off-road fun, because well it is not great as a road vehicle. That is what my Model S is for.

I hear through some friends that in spite of what FCA says officially, Jeep engineers are working hard on an “all-electric Jeep”, and am guessing this might have to do with the big penalties they are hoping to offset with the Tesla deal. I still suspect it will be the pretend off-road vehicles they focus on, but maybe not. BEVs with multiple motors, especially one per wheel like the upcoming Rivian, should be really awesome off-road machines.

BTW, full disclosure: I have a reservation for a Rivian R1T, nice market niche for serious off-road “adventure vehicle” capability, but comfort and convenience and on-road capabilities way way beyond the Jeep. I will look carefully at the Tesla pickup when announced, but am expecting more of a Hummer on Steriods that won’t fit in my garage and maybe priced way above $100k.
 
Per CNBC .......Tesla is about to lose a WHOLE GROUP of KEY investors!!!!

LOL

Who said that then, oh yes, Brian Johnson of Barclays. Let's have a look at Brian's $TSLA history...

upload_2019-5-7_17-40-17.png
 
Everyone I know buying "Jeeps" these days are 40 year olds trying to hang on to some semblance of a fun life. As an '01 Wrangler owner I can tell you there hasn't been a real Jeep since 2006, these new 4 door monstrosities are just minivans with a different tub.

I've started plenty of EV Jeep threads here......they're way down below somewhere!

My next plan is to hook up with EVWest and some CA based off road fabricators next spring to build me a frame up TJ with as much guts as possible from a wrecked Model S/X/3. Only question is.....swap in a single/double motor and keep the 5sp transmission or go with direct drive on both axles?

I think Elon would be wise to start down the off road path in a year or so. It's very similar to the tactic of starting with the highest performing Roadster and working down the product chain. A stripped down Jeep-style EV would absolutely crush anything ICE on climbing and any other off road test. You could even roll out a Tesla solar canopy to charge in the field.
I'm very much out of my depth here, but wouldn't it be easier to modify a Model 3 body to make it off road worthy? Sounds like a fun, if expensive, project either way.

Direct drive makes sense to me. Why add complexity and something else to break while off-roading? I think the barrier with off road EVs is charging infrastructure. Placing Superchargers at the start of major trail heads would get us there, but who knows when that could happen. I'd rather see SCs at tracks first. :)
 
Florida has already approved a bill to make FSD legal. Idea that regulatory approval will come after FSD achievement doesn't seem to be correct.

Here's one of the many Florida news link, this is a big deal IMO. Florida Approves Allowing Rideshare Firms to Deploy Autonomous Vehicles
Senate approved 100%, just needs Gov's approval. I also noticed the articles (several) make no mention of Tesla - seems all Uber/Lyft related. Figures.

I lived in Fla for a few years, plenty of dangerous roads there with nice divided highways mixed with stop lights all along. The 19 on the west coast was (is?) known for accidents because of this and it goes through every major city like this. What a crazy state for this, maybe it's for the seniors.

Why Fla?
 
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I'm very much out of my depth here, but wouldn't it be easier to modify a Model 3 body to make it off road worthy? Sounds like a fun, if expensive, project either way.
Older Wranglers are fairly straightforward and easy to disassemble/rebuild. There's lots of room in the tub to add battery packs, etc.

You can buy a tub for $2500 brand new and just build up from there. I'll probably do that and source a mix of new/used Jeep/Tesla parts with a budget around $40-55k(depending on the cost of Tesla parts. Of course this will include my custom collapsible/stow-able solar charging canopy.

Direct drive makes sense to me. Why add complexity and something else to break while off-roading?
My worry is that shifting is like 80% of the fun! Hopefully I can try out both options before planning even begins.
I think the barrier with off road EVs is charging infrastructure.
The sun shines in most places, and these off road people spend a lot of time just standing around drinking. Plenty of time to top off batteries. Will certainly need some ability to swap out at least a portion of the battery pack with off road vehicles.
 
Zach Kirkhorn said recently that carriers contained more cars this quarter. Since there's been so few ships thus far maybe Tesla has been filling them. Dare one whish for over 5k or is that too much?
I heard Zach, but the ship loading cadence so far has been almost identical to Q1. The first five ships reached Pier 80 on similar dates as Q1 and loaded cars for about the same amount of time. That says same cars per ship to me. The difference in Q2 is the 1st and 4th ship went to Asia instead of Europe.

The sporadic but ongoing Model 3 deliveries in are a bit of a mystery, since there hasn't been a ship dock in Europe for six weeks. I don't have any better theories than @schonelucht.
 
I think the bigger question is if the robotaxi is a winner-takes-all market or not. It appears you think it's not. But some would argue it is.
It could be, but I don't believe that it necessarily will be. But more to the point for Tesla shareholders, I don't believe that we should want it to be a winner-take-all market.

Firstly, TN would become a regulated monopoly in many jurisdictions. Regulations would be brought to bear to limit just how far Tesla could go. Tesla could even face being broken up so that the entity that makes the vehicles cannot be the entity that owns and operates the fleet. How much Tesla could charge for fares and how much would be shared with private owners using TN could all be dictated by utility commissions. In short there is a whole pile of political problems here that we would do best not to step in, if we can avoid it.

Second, it would not be consistent with Tesla's mission. To accelerate the transition to sustainable energy and transport, We need genuine competition in this space. This has the potential to make battery packs 5 times more efficient reducing carbon emissions than their use in private auto ownership. So to get the biggest environmental impact from EVs, we need to maximize commercial fleet applications such as robotaxis. Competition will be the most effective way to speed robotaxis to market and to maximally displace less impactful private ownership. Service levels will be higher with competition and fares will be lower. This is truly the sort of thing the Tesla mission is to accelerate.

Third, competition allows there to be a much richer ecosystem, which can create lower cap, higher profit opportunities for Tesla. A lot of this emerging industry is destined to bond like rates of return on capital. But some parts of the supply chain will have much more dynamic, extraordinary returns. Already Tesla is willing to share the vehicle ownership piece with Tesla vehicle owners. Yes, that sells cars in the short run, but also in the long run Tesla owners are providing capital and earning modest rates of return on that capital. Tesla is able to grow the fleet larger and faster because it does not need to raise all that capital itself. Long-run owning a fleet of 12-year old rental vehicles is not a very exciting place to put Tesla's capital. But where Tesla could make extraordinary returns for rather low capital is in licensing the FSD software, providing FSD engineering services and manufacturing certain FSD components to other OEMs. That tech would all be optimized for the TN platform. So altogether you have a very strong ecosystem. Returning to the second point, this ecosystem can scale up much faster than Tesla can raise capital. So it can rapidly monetize the investment that Tesla is making into software, engineering and hardware (chips). Finally, the ecosystem will attract many other strong innovators to solve critical problems. For example, I love watching the Boston Dynamics videos. Maybe they could develop a robot that can service the rental cars, to vacuum, clean them and generally prep for riders. Could Tesla do this? Perhaps, but I think they've got bigger fish to fry at this point. Regardless, the sooner things like servicing the rental fleet gets optimized, the more quickly the robotaxi business can advance.

So as I've pointed out before, the robotaxi and other robofleet (i.e. semis) business is huge, potentially 25 million new vehicles per year and a fleet of 400 million vehicles. Tesla could be a nice regulated monopoly limited to operating a 10 million vehicle fleet at a 10% profit rate as a kind of public utility. Or it could be at the very center of a vast and dynamic ecosystem around a fleet of 400 million vehicles. Together that ecosystem could radically restructure the transportation and energy sectors to cut carbon emissions from oil by about 30% by 2030. So I don't want a winner-take-all market; I want full transformation.
 
CUSIP/ ISIN Mdy/S&P Issue Description Coupon Maturity
88160RAG6/ US88160RAG65 -/-
Tesla Inc Sr Glbl Coco 24
Convertible

I was finally able to pick up the convertibles today on etrade. Doesn't seem to have minimum quantities, but the price is higher than when they were issued ($103.50 at the moment). Not enough to make a difference in 5 years no matter how things work out. Thanks for the info!
 
I have no luck with timing when it comes to investing, but I'm gonna trade TSLA this summer to leverage these midmorning dips and obvious bear attacks.

Is there a way to take historical SP data and run it through and algo to kick out an optimal strategy? As in.....SP was up previous day, sell at open and buy at X o'clock? I really think there's a reliable pattern that's not much more complex than that.
 
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Everyone I know buying "Jeeps" these days are 40 year olds trying to hang on to some semblance of a fun life. As an '01 Wrangler owner I can tell you there hasn't been a real Jeep since 2006, these new 4 door monstrosities are just minivans with a different tub.

I've started plenty of EV Jeep threads here......they're way down below somewhere!

My next plan is to hook up with EVWest and some CA based off road fabricators next spring to build me a frame up TJ with as much guts as possible from a wrecked Model S/X/3. Only question is.....swap in a single/double motor and keep the 5sp transmission or go with direct drive on both axles?

I think Elon would be wise to start down the off road path in a year or so. It's very similar to the tactic of starting with the highest performing Roadster and working down the product chain. A stripped down Jeep-style EV would absolutely crush anything ICE on climbing and any other off road test. You could even roll out a Tesla solar canopy to charge in the field.
Yep, if only salvage run&drive dual motor model 3 were not so expensive... and there are not many cheap TJs either! We have a 2004, but the idea of cutting up a perfectly good TJ seems wrong. I think you would end up with a $70k build you could not sell for $10k.
 
This one is a bit strange. No recent shipments in Norway that we know off. My working theory previously was that deliveries the last few weeks in Norway are mainly driven by cars coming out of rework and that the rate of them being delivered is indicative of service capacity to do whatever is needed to make them deliverable. Under that theory you'd expect a gradual slowing down of deliveries as the number of cars that are trivially fixable dwindle down. The only way to keep this theory going with this pop would be that these car share a 'defect' that is easily fixable but needed the arrival of spare parts from the US and that those just got there. Anyone have a better theory -> shoot.

For those not up to date, the first ship to arrive in Europe this quarter is passing the Channel and should arrive in Zeebrugge within the next 24 hours.
Whatever it is, the CFO reiterated the guidance for the quarter. I guess one month into the quarter they must have better indicators (hopefully so).
 
Buffet has said he doesn't think Tesla will disrupt the insurance business, but I think he is missing the point. Elon doesn't want to disrupt the insurance industry, he wants to vertically integrate. Tesla insurance will have better data than other carriers and will have an incentive to offer reasonable rates. In insurance, better data = better understanding of risk = better rates and/or profits.

You wouldn't say that the GM financing arm is out there trying to disrupt the financial industry.
Well, GMAC tried to do that and did succeed in becoming a giant mortgage originator, among other things. Back when they began more tan 100 years ago they wanted financing in order to sell cars they otherwise might not sell. That worked astoundingly well. Tesla, with insurance, is probably copying that Sloan-era GM policy. That they have better data, if they can deploy it properly, is unquestionable. @neroden is prone to hubris regarding actuarial science IMHO, but he's correct that Tesla often is unable to execute on their promises based on their superior data.

I am reminded of Long Term Capital Management again. To wit: Superior data and superior analytics do not guarantee excellent results.

For Tesla there is never a question about superior data nor superior intellect. Their question is always about successful execution.

After all making consistent profits in auto insurance is never a sure thing. Actuarial decisions based on anything other than collision loss severity and insured driving record is fraught. The always reliable postal code classification, included in the Tesla generic application, is a wonderful surrogate for those two factors. Auto insurance actuaries are truly adept in engineering multi-collinearity into their algorithms and very, very few people seem to notice, fewer know what that means and even fewer care. Basically that means that auto insurance rates are generally built on reliable layers of prejudice.

So the question is whether Tesla can actually do better. Maybe, but I'll be surprised if they succeed in any consequential way. OTOH, they may well be able to make a bit of money, and betting against Elon as a disruptor is by no means a sure thing.
 
I guess one month into the quarter they must have better indicators (hopefully so).
They didn't last quarter!
What according to you is the probability of a robotaxi service by Tesla before end of 2021 in one city ?
Almost nil.
Doesn’t that make Sandy Munos comment about the chassis being way overbuilt make more sense...?
Are chassis failures a major problem with 500k mile NYC taxis? It's generally stuff like suspensions, engine/transmission, interiors, auxiliary systems and, of course, crash damage.
Um...Brad had vested interest in lidar company. He is not unbiased.
He also owns shares in Tesla and drives a Model 3. He's a long-time fan of self-driving and advises investors to spread their bets across the sector instead of trying to pick a single winner.
 
Whatever it is, the CFO reiterated the guidance for the quarter. I guess one month into the quarter they must have better indicators (hopefully so).

One month into Q1, Elon hoped for a slight profit and we know how that turned out. I think Tesla is in uncharted territory now and does not necessarily have a firm grasp on how the short term future will turn out.
 
Tale of Two Teslas

As a long term shareholder (since 2011) and car owner (since 2012) there's something about the recent shift in emphasis on FSD that has me troubled:

When I bought our first Model S, and then every subsequent Tesla, while the reasons were multiple, the overwhelming reason was it offered a superior driving experience. Quicker, quieter, road-hugging, single-footing, aerodynamic, visually striking, extending door handles (extending door handles!) - all of it redefined the driving experience for me. I want Tesla to still be about that for a long time, and I think it will.
......

Sell both, hard. You'll then have created the ultimate ownership experience, where you get all of the above and AirBnB cash on wheels if you choose, without sheets to wash.

Amen! Strange for a guy who once bought (and then totaled) a McLaren F1, to appear to be looking forward to the day when cars Tesla builds will have no steering wheel. Given the recent examples of EAP responding to prevent accidents when the driver hasn't taken action in time, there don't have to be laws or insurance straight jackets preventing owners from deciding when to let their FSD cars drive them or choose to drive themselves at times when that is enjoyable and safe for them and others.