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And you can't print enough CNY to properly fix this without crashing the currency.

That's wrong.

Until the trade balance is wildly positive, the exchange rate of the "real" CNY is set by its trading flows, and the exchange rate to the internal currency is basically domestic policy: to control imports. By weakening/strengthening the CNY China can decrease/increase imports and domestic consumption.

China has various layers of capital controls to isolate internal demand.

And China's trade balance is wildly positive and growing:

fredgraph.png


Exports never dipped below imports in the last 10 years, and the export surplus averages around 15-20% of the economy... (And in case you distrust Chinese economical data, which I agree that you generally should: this is a U.S. Federal Reserve data series, and imports/exports balance to a country can be measured independently by their main trading partners and is thus much harder for the country to fudge.)

And note that exports to imports ratio has been increasing since the trade war. (What Trump didn't realize is that by starting a trade war with China the U.S. is hurting their own consumers and corporations mainly.)

But the most important takeaway: China could literally burn up 15-20% of the ~2,100 billion dollars and Euros they are earning to heat the Forbidden City, and still be OK and stable macroeconomically.

The bad debt does not "literally disappear" when it reaches state controlled banks (that's basically all of them by the way) but bounces around the multiple balance sheets of each or gets wrapped up as a trust product and moved onto another unsuspecting participant in the domestic economy. It's still there strangling the long term growth potential of the economy.

It literally disappears as it's written off over years/decades and becomes irrelevant by the inflation rate and growth of the economy. In an economy that is growing ~7% year over year on ~2% of inflation, 1 billion dollars of debt in 2000 has been reduced to only $194m of debt today in 2000 dollars. (!)

The "Chinese ghost towns" cited as examples of bad central planning and bad investments back in the 2000s? One of the big "ghost towns" was Lingang New City:


The town is now called "Nanhui New City", a city now hosting several large colleges, and you might have have heard of it here as well, because Tesla is building a Gigafactory right there. :D

And the debt caused by the construction costs of this new city might still be somewhere on the balance sheets of a Chinese state owned bank or a Chinese local government.

There's no shareholders of state owned banks to be worried about the balance sheet, other than top officials of the Chinese Communist Party. There's no solvency worries of Chinese state owned banks, ever, as the Central Bank of China is controlled by the same Chinese Communist Party.

But the most important part: debt can only damage an economy if it has a "channel of effect", such as:
  • reducing solvency of the corporation owing it and thus increasing its financing costs,
  • or by forcing it into "austerity" that damages its future growth prospects,
  • or by draining its cash income via interest payments,
  • or by making it harder to raise new funds.
But by moving "bad debt" on the balance sheet of Chinese state owned banks the debt is isolated from the real economy: state owned banks get as much liquidity from the central bank as they need, their solvency is not in question, and their ability to lend does not depend on the amount of debt they are carrying.

Again, I understand and realize that this is highly non-intuitive from the viewpoint of western economies, democracies and monetary systems. Alternatively, instead of accepting my line of arguments, you could attempt to falsify my claim: in what way does "bad debt" on the balance sheet of Chinese state owned banks have a negative effect on the real economy? Just outline a single such channel of effect. I believe you won't be able to.
 
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...
  • The "net new orders as of yesterday" wording is strong and specific, and including 10k in-transit vehicles would be very misleading, as in-transit vehicles in Q2 would further increase if the wave is unwound.
  • If 10k in-transit is included that would make Q2 new orders 40k only, not supporting 90k+ deliveries.

Net new order has a very specific meaning defined by Tesla and hashed out in these forums few years back, and it doesn't add or subtract from my statements. It's not a magic modifier, it's just Elon using precise language and defined term. I'm not gonna chase definition through old conference calls and posts. I'd explain what it means, but you being who you are, I'm afraid it's not gonna pass your criteria for preciseness.

I find your second point funny. You took my precise point that there could be only 40K orders placed in Q2 (first 50 days), used very weak assumption that 40K in first 50 days would mean 90K wasn't achievable, to turn it into a "proof" that my interpretation cannot be correct!?
Not buying it - where do I start? Let's just go with one point: Even if orders didn't pick up already, Tesla always has a strong Q finish, and if channels are stuffed (cars in stores and on the way), there will be ways to close more deals towards the end of Q. Like they've done it numerous times through '16 and '17.
 
I find your second point funny. You took my precise point that there could be only 40K orders placed in Q2 (first 50 days), used very weak assumption that 40K in first 50 days would mean 90K wasn't achievable, to turn it into a "proof" that my interpretation cannot be correct!?

Yeah, so when you are misleading about what I wrote please at least give me the courtesy of not snipping away the quote that would directly falsify your creative and false re-interpretation of what I wrote:

I agree that the "for this quarter" wording adds ambiguity, but the "net new orders" wording IMO removes much of that ambiguity:
  • The "net new orders as of yesterday" wording is strong and specific, and including 10k in-transit vehicles would be very misleading, as in-transit vehicles in Q2 would further increase if the wave is unwound.
  • If 10k in-transit is included that would make Q2 new orders 40k only, not supporting 90k+ deliveries.
So while after Q1 being careful about expectations is prudent, I think Elon's email means what it says.

I didn't offer any such "proof", I did the exact opposite: as I wrote it I agree that it's ambiguous, which means that your interpretation could be correct, but in my opinion the other parts of the email are counter-indicative and I think the email means 50k new orders in Q2.

Which of the two readings is correct we might (or might not) know when the Q2 delivery report is published, but I will say it again that it's prudent to be conservative, i.e. to give your more pessimistic reading more weight than my more optimistic reading.

On a final note, your contributions to this forum are welcome, but your fresh attempt to create yet another fake controversy, to be followed by another round of playing the victim, to be followed by a repeated announcement to leave this forum forever (only to be broken), is not welcome. Make your point, disagree if you want to, but stop attacking members and drop the attitude please.
 
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Yeah, so when you are misleading about what I wrote please at least give me the courtesy of not snipping away the quote that would directly falsify your creative and false re-interpretation of what I wrote:



Exactly which part of "I agree that [it] adds ambiguity" and" "IMO removes much of that ambiguity" means that I quoted it as "proof" that your interpretation isn't correct?

I doesn't. As I wrote it I agree that it's ambiguous, which means that your interpretation could be correct, but in my opinion the other parts of the email are counter-indicative and I think the email means 50k new orders in Q2.

Which of the two readings is correct we might (or might not) know when the Q2 delivery report is published, but I will say it again that it's prudent to be conservative.

On a final note, your contributions to this forum are welcome, but your fresh attempt to create yet another fake controversy, to be followed by another round of playing the victim, to be followed by a repeated announcement to leave this forum forever (only to be broken), is not welcome. Make your point, disagree if you want to, but stop attacking members and drop the attitude please.
It helps no one to continue this discussion.
 
It helps no one to continue this discussion.

There was no "discussion": I agreed with your assessment that Elon's email is ambiguous and that it could mean either 40k or 50k new orders in Q2, plus I offered a different interpretation while fully accepting the possibility that your interpretation could be the ultimately correct one.

At which point you pretended that I wrote that your interpretation "cannot be correct", which line of argument was bizarre as I wrote the exact opposite...
 
That's wrong.

Until the trade balance is wildly positive, the exchange rate of the "real" CNY is set by its trading flows, and the exchange rate to the internal currency is basically domestic policy: to control imports. By weakening/strengthening the CNY China can decrease/increase imports and domestic consumption.

China has various layers of capital controls to isolate internal demand.

And China's trade balance is wildly positive and growing:

fredgraph.png


Exports never dipped below imports in the last 10 years, and the export surplus averages around 15-20% of the economy... (And in case you distrust Chinese economical data, which I agree that you generally should: this is a U.S. Federal Reserve data series, and imports/exports balance to a country can be measured independently by their main trading partners and is thus much harder for the country to fudge.)

And note that exports to imports ratio has been increasing since the trade war. (What Trump didn't realize is that by starting a trade war with China the U.S. is hurting their own consumers and corporations mainly.)

But the most important takeaway: China could literally burn up 15-20% of the ~2,100 billion dollars and Euros they are earning to heat the Forbidden City, and still be OK and stable macroeconomically.



It literally disappears as it's written off over years/decades and becomes irrelevant by the inflation rate and growth of the economy. In an economy that is growing ~7% year over year on ~2% of inflation, 1 billion dollars of debt in 2000 has been reduced to only $194m of debt today in 2000 dollars. (!)

The "Chinese ghost towns" cited as examples of bad central planning and bad investments back in the 2000s? One of the big "ghost towns" was Lingang New City:


The town is now called "Nanhui New City", a city now hosting several large colleges, and you might have have heard of it here as well, because Tesla is building a Gigafactory right there. :D

And the debt caused by the construction costs of this new city might still be somewhere on the balance sheets of a Chinese state owned bank or a Chinese local government.

There's no shareholders of state owned banks to be worried about the balance sheet, other than top officials of the Chinese Communist Party. There's no solvency worries of Chinese state owned banks, ever, as the Central Bank of China is controlled by the same Chinese Communist Party.

But the most important part: debt can only damage an economy if it has a "channel of effect", such as:
  • reducing solvency of the corporation owing it and thus increasing its financing costs,
  • or by forcing it into "austerity" that damages its future growth prospects,
  • or by draining its cash income via interest payments,
  • or by making it harder to raise new funds.
But by moving "bad debt" on the balance sheet of Chinese state owned banks the debt is isolated from the real economy: state owned banks get as much liquidity from the central bank as they need, their solvency is not in question, and their ability to lend does not depend on the amount of debt they are carrying.

Again, I understand and realize that this is highly non-intuitive from the viewpoint of western economies, democracies and monetary systems. Alternatively, instead of accepting my line of arguments, you could attempt to falsify my claim: in what way does "bad debt" on the balance sheet of Chinese state owned banks have a negative effect on the real economy? Just outline a single such channel of effect. I believe you won't be able to.
Bad lending without consequence causes allocative inefficiency - growth in banking sector assets is outstripping growth in nominal GDP. And at times China has been flirting with growth in assets that outstrips growth in deposits. Your point is correct that this doesn't matter so long as the PBOC can create liquidity at the flick of a policy pen to fill the gap. The banks stay liquid and can continue bailing out failed borrowers subject to industrial policy. But at some point your, the central bank's policy wiggle room to do this without pure printing recedes. And without pure printing, I don't see how you maintain the highly managed exchange rate. Your big assumption is that the trade surplus will remain at high levels, even as GDP continues to reach mature levels.

In terms of bad investments by the way, I talk not of real estate projects in Tier 3 cities, which may or may not prove to have long term economic utility. The same with air/rail infrastructure - in fact it's quite smart to build out such a complete and expensive network while wages are relatively low, as the cost will be inflated away over the decades as wages increase. But there are any number of new factories that produce at a gross loss on a systemic basis. There's ongoing value destruction happening all over the place actually, not just in the primary sector. The hope for us all must be that its growth rate is gradually decreasing. Positively, the millions of newly minted graduates post-2000 are hitting the workplace and slowly reaching career maturity so perhaps there is hope.
 
You can't make this stuff up.

Tesla (NASDAQ:TSLA) is down another 1% premarket to $188/share after Barclays cut its price target on the stock to $150 (from $192) following the latest comments from Elon Musk.

"While our demand is strong, we have a lot of vehicle deliveries to catch up to in order to have a successful quarter," he wrote in a company-wide email reported by multiple media outlets.

Barclays analyst Brian Johnson now appears less convinced that the group can meet its stated aim of delivering between 360,000 and 400,000 vehicles this year, after recording only 63,000 in the first quarter.

Tesla Drifts Lower After Barclays Price Cut, Musk Plea For Deliveries 'Catch up'
 
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That pre-market move is often nonsense recently, being rarely a good predictor of how the day ends. What with yesterday being green, I think a lot of people waiting to catch the bottom may figure that we are at the bottom now and buy in. I know if I had dry powder I'd be tempted to buy today. I suspect today will end green too.
 
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You can't make this stuff up.

Tesla (NASDAQ:TSLA) is down another 1% premarket to $188/share after Barclays cut its price target on the stock to $150 (from $192) following the latest comments from Elon Musk.

"While our demand is strong, we have a lot of vehicle deliveries to catch up to in order to have a successful quarter," he wrote in a company-wide email reported by multiple media outlets.

Barclays analyst Brian Johnson now appears less convinced that the group can meet its stated aim of delivering between 360,000 and 400,000 vehicles this year, after recording only 63,000 in the first quarter.

Tesla Drifts Lower After Barclays Price Cut, Musk Plea For Deliveries 'Catch up'

Notice there is no evidence or claim in this article that Barclay's did this BECAUSE of the email.
 
Biden having a big fundraising event with Chanos.

Maybe a long shot, but If Trump learns what would hurt Chanos the most, he might do something crazy....
Chanos is a well know fund raising bundler for Establishment Democrats.
The President’s Billionaire Playboy Bundler - Washington Free Beacon
According to a Wikileaks leaked DNC email, he was short listed for a round of golf with Obama.

It obvious why Elon did it, to help his cousins. Not bad investment if they get their solar roof working. But that is a big IF.
Solar roof are a big market, every house will need it.
Elon was also the largest shareholder plus owned bonds along with SpaceX. It was a strategic move to stop a bank run induced by short sellers spreading fake news. Those same players have continued on with Tesla (Chanos, Gordon Johnson et al) with less success.
 
Notice there is no evidence or claim in this article that Barclay's did this BECAUSE of the email.
But just yesterday someone was suggesting that we should expect another downgrade from a timing perspective. Barclays is downgrading because the SP came down so low that their original target price seemed neutral. This hurts their thesis so they use whatever *sugar* they can to justify downgrade.

There was literally zero negativity in Elon’s email. He has said and Zach has said that expedite shipping and wave cost extra money. So all Elon is doing is getting ahead of the curve. Barclays seem to have conveniently ignored that the current deliveries do not account for China made cars and RHD. Another A**hole among the a**holes of wall st analysts.
 
The reservation number on todays order is almost exactly 50,000 higher than one month ago. I don't know if order number are sequential, but I would assume so. That means they have had 50,000 orders in the last 30 days. :cool:

Cancelled orders could be included in the running sequence. And people cancelling one order to make a new one with different specs. Atleast that is how we did it when I worked on online shopping systems.

At what point do people in LA or Norway who want a Tesla decide to not buy a Tesla because that's what everyone else is driving?

This is already happening. All the new premium electric cars get customers from this camp. Jaguar i-Pace, Audi e-Tron, Hyundai Ioniq and newcomers like Mercedes EQC and Porsche Taycan.

The FUD campaigns against Tesla hit just as hard in Norway. The media love click bait headlines about Tesla. And negative news get the most clicks. Thr right wing party wants to tax electric cars as hard as ICE cars are taxed today. And my left-wing aunt recently lectured me on how electric cars and Tesla are destroying the environment.
 
We* don’t care about people who use the car/system in a way it’s not intended in the same way *we* don’t care if Mark S. gets E. Coli from dipping his toothbrush in the toilet.
OK, we just disagree. I think good design has to be fault tolerant and bad design is “use as directed or screw you.” Ask Boeing if they wish they’d made their MCAS trim augmentation system fault tolerant and you will not hear “properly trained pilots will have no problem operating this jet safely.”
Though that is what they said, very briefly, after the first Max 8 went down.
Robin
 
Chanos is a well know fund raising bundler for Establishment Democrats.
The President’s Billionaire Playboy Bundler - Washington Free Beacon
According to a Wikileaks leaked DNC email, he was short listed for a round of golf with Obama.


Elon was also the largest shareholder plus owned bonds along with SpaceX. It was a strategic move to stop a bank run induced by short sellers spreading fake news. Those same players have continued on with Tesla (Chanos, Gordon Johnson et al) with less success.

Really makes one feel dirty as there seems to be no safe port in the political S storm:mad:

I gotta take a shower after reading that WFB piece.... yeeechh!

Fire Away!