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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

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So you are calling a cumulative cash benefit of $750m+ "bleeding", and proof for why the Solar City acquisition was a bad idea?

Oh, and you do this after Q4 and Q1, the two autumn-winter quarters with weak solar sales, right before Q2 where the VIEs will seasonally probably generate cash again?

Rather disingenuous arguments.
The VIEs did not create a "cumulative cash benefit" of 750m+. If you dig into the old SCTY presentations you see four phases of solar leasing:

1) Installation - financed ~100% by non-recourse lenders and "tax equity" + "cash equity" investors.
2) First ~10 years of lease - monthly cash receipts go almost entirely to repay lenders and tax/cash equity investors.
3) Second ~10 years - monthly cash receipts mostly flow to SCTY
4) 10 year renewal period - monthly cash receipts flow to SCTY

Phases 1 and 2 were pretty much cash-neutral for SCTY. The VIE "cash flows" on the cash flow statement are mostly reversals of non-cash GAAP profit or losses, themselves driven by the incredibly arcane lease/VIE accounting. They don't represent actual cash inflows or outflows for SCTY/TSLA. SCTY opex (mostly SG&A), on the other hand, is a real cash outflow. It was approaching $1b/year by the time SCTY hit the wall.

SCTY continually issued stock and recourse debt to cover opex. Tesla should have slashed SCTY opex 80-90% within six months, but they blew half a billion or more dragging it out 18 months.

Again, this comes straight from the old SCTY presentations. No analysis required.

Tesla also took on SCTY's 1.6b of recourse debt. Since almost all was due before phase 3 cash flows kick in, Tesla has been paying that out of pocket. Whether Tesla will get their cash back depends on cash flows during phase 3 and 4. I found SCTY's assumptions reasonable for phase 3 and laughable for phase 4. All told, I figure they'll eventually get their cash back plus a little. Of course they'd be better off to have that cash now instead of getting it 5-18 years down the road.
 
62 model 3's in inventory in my area (NYC) which is the most I've seen since the page went up. was initially 45 then in the 20s till today.

I've only been watching a week but Chicago fluctuates which is good as the cars aren't just sitting there. It was 32 last Friday, then low teens early this week, now back up. S and X numbers barely move. Disclaimer: I do not track VINs so it is possible cars were sold and replenished. I only look every few days out of curiosity.
 
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I second both of these motions.

This:
How much would it hurt to say, “hey we delivered 860 cars today”. “ “Hey we delivered 740 cars today” or “hey there was a record 1040 cars today in the world. That’s 1040 less vehicles with gas tanks.”But no. Just day after day of Tesla on the edge of bankruptcy. Tesla out of cash. Nobody wants Tesla’s. Tesla’s all blow up whenever they want.

And this:
Around report time for 2013 1Q or 2Q, I posited that the very most defensive and offensive (OFF-ensive, not of-FEN-sive)* plays Tesla could do would be to report sales and/or deliveries at midnight PST every single day.
 
It is revealing to pay attention to how AutoLine views the EV marketplace. This link from yesterday.

Listen particularly at minute 1:48 where the EV marketplace is discussed. They are calling for an EV disaster for Detroit.

AD #2581 – Whole EV Segment Drops, Could Satellite Images Make 3D Maps? Challenger Sales Pull Away From Camaro

I think part of what we are seeing in this recurring discussion of demand is that the marketplace is lukewarm to EVs. Opposition marketing has been effective. There is a fear that there is some end to early adopters and that demand may slide one day. Do we really know the answer to this or does it remain a bit of a question. There is no way to know.

I think it is the same with FSD. Do people really want it? Surely many do but how deep is the interest. Andy Grove of Intel used to say that inflection points are revealed when a product is 10x better. I think EVs meet that criteria but the larger world may not be there yet for FSD.

I think Jobs had success with smartphones by linking to an existing passion - music. Music was the known passion that could pull an unwitting public out of a rut into a new realm. Maybe FSD should be linked to something as passion-filled as music. Or something else...

Interesting insight from AutoLine. I live in a *huge* apartment building on the San Francisco Peninsula. In my building's garage there is zero Tesla. None. The reason is very simple... there is no EV charger in the building at all.
Also... There is no EV charger in my office building's garage. In the past 3 years our office moved 3 times, but we stayed in SF. None of the office buildings had EV chargers... because they are sooo cramped that you can't even fit a bicycle rack in there.
And this is SF, fairly close to the tesla HQ.

Maybe I'm the minority, but it would be fairly inconvenient for me to drive a Tesla.
 
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ARK buys some more of that Tesla stuff, 86,667 shares
View attachment 400975
Someone should give ARK a PSA and let them know it is clear that EVs are a no go, and they should invest in the soon to be announced worldwide cell phone, tablet, and laptop gasoline based charging stations with soon to be available in home gasoline tanks, generators and charging for your kiddo's ipads...
 
This is what I would call a total PR cluster f@ck on Tesla’s part. Right now 100 percent of the media is saying they are done because there is no demand. Nobody wants them. Arguably they produce about 1000 cars a day. But from what Joe public reads none or very few are sold. No reports of sales in Europe, China, the USA, Canada. Everybody in our workplace thinks they have already folded and the Supercharger network has been shut down. How much would it hurt to say, “hey we delivered 860 cars today”. “ “Hey we delivered 740 cars today” or “hey there was a record 1040 cars today in the world. That’s 1040 less vehicles with gas tanks.”But no. Just day after day of Tesla on the edge of bankruptcy. Tesla out of cash. Nobody wants Tesla’s. Tesla’s all blow up whenever they want.

The reason I don’t invest is lack of discretionary funds. But if I did have some dough I wouldn’t invest just from the PR point of view.

Great cars, quite literally the best, but, you know, nobody wants them....or so it seems.

Just sayin.
I know it’s not a popular view, but IMHO THIS is when advertising would help - simple message: best selling luxury sedan, one quarter million sold, safest car ever tested, etc. Silence at this point is NOT good.
 
Interesting insight from AutoLine. I live in a *huge* apartment building on the San Francisco Peninsula. In my building's garage there is zero Tesla. None. The reason is very simple... there is no EV charger in the building at all.
Also... There is no EV charger in my office building's garage. In the past 3 years our office moved 3 times, but we stayed in SF. None of the office buildings had EV chargers... because they are sooo cramped that you can't even fit a bicycle rack in there.
And this is SF, fairly close to the tesla HQ.

Maybe I'm the minority, but it would be fairly inconvenient for me to drive a Tesla.

Are there any electrical outlets in the garage?
 
I'm still 30 pages behind so I hope this isn't a redundant thought.

One reason Elon may be reluctant to do a stock offer raise is that he would end up with fewer shares that he owns personally, unless he can buy some of the offering himself. I think retaining control of Tesla is very important to him.

It is hard to respond to this thread as it goes so fast but I agree to an extent with this idea. Elon's actions make me believe they would really like to keep his ownership %.

Amazing to me how short term the market thinks. One 'bad' quarter and many lose their minds. At this point it seams no announcements by Tesla are going to turn some of the sentiment they just have to continuously/relentlessly perform.

One anecdote today when I was sitting at a service center getting my taillight fixed. The waiting room was half filled with owners waiting to get their car fixed and half waiting to take possession of a new car. You would think that the folks getting repairs would be not in the best of moods but to a person (including one lady who was having a not great repair experience) they sang the praises of the company. 'Best car you will ever own', 'there is no going back', 'wait until you get your first software update'. It was surreal to be honest. That is brand power.
 
Well, f*** me, but I never thought I'd say it was nice to see a strong close, when the close was $235 :confused:

So what else... hmmmm...

It's not the end of the world, but you have to remember most people who bought in sometime in the last 5 years are now either flat or underwater in their Tesla investment, when over that time period the NASDAQ has doubled in value.... some grumbling is to be expected.

Yeah, I'm the lucky *****r that bought 80% of his position end February 2016 - now that was a *real* dip!

SOLD TSLA 190426 235 CALL 3x @ .25/contract

Making some free lunch money ($70) in the next 60 mins. :)

Options are a bitch, eh?

Musk's hype fell flat which caused many to jump the gun with this stock, me included. Now it's a show me stock, which is fine. Puts more pressure on him to execute better and cause an artificial low before what he promises(including profitability from now on statement).

So he needs to hit his guide and release FSD by year end(even if it's not perfect), and have GF3 completed by year end. He lost all credibility right now even though I feel he is actually more realistic today than before...saying how he'll be at 10k/week of Model 3s when they couldn't even get 1/10th of that out.

Even if he execute in a bumpy fashion, as long his aspirations are executed..that's all it matters. Currently they are pricing in him talking out of his ass for everything. That's misguided because he rarely doesn't execute..he just execute too late and perhaps a little bit different than what's promised. Just really sucks he likes to give out exact time lines for pipe dream scenarios over and over again. No one believes a thing he says anymore. His first goal is to hit 90k deliveries for Q2. If he does then that will get a lot of confidence back in the stock.

Yep, this is where it's at. Right now we're being mauled by bears wearing shorts, but the rest of the normal investment world don't believe Eon anymore. We do, mostly, because we pay close attention and although he's late, it comes. The rest just see that things don't arrive when said.

So best to hunker-down and deliver some freakin' cars. And, while you're at it, stop hyping everything - it's devaluing everything you say, dude.

But keep with the crazy Twitter stuff, people like that.

This is what I would call a total PR cluster f@ck on Tesla’s part. Right now 100 percent of the media is saying they are done because there is no demand. Nobody wants them. Arguably they produce about 1000 cars a day. But from what Joe public reads none or very few are sold. No reports of sales in Europe, China, the USA, Canada. Everybody in our workplace thinks they have already folded and the Supercharger network has been shut down. How much would it hurt to say, “hey we delivered 860 cars today”. “ “Hey we delivered 740 cars today” or “hey there was a record 1040 cars today in the world. That’s 1040 less vehicles with gas tanks.”But no. Just day after day of Tesla on the edge of bankruptcy. Tesla out of cash. Nobody wants Tesla’s. Tesla’s all blow up whenever they want.

The reason I don’t invest is lack of discretionary funds. But if I did have some dough I wouldn’t invest just from the PR point of view.

Great cars, quite literally the best, but, you know, nobody wants them....or so it seems.

Just sayin.

Indeed - I remember saying last year that Tesla could put an M3 production counter on their website. Deliveries would be better, of course. People will say that it will be used for FUD, but better to have facts to fight the FUD, IMO.

Or value analyst, I’m not one to hate though my july 2020 $300 are hurting

What happened to treadtrader007?

I follow TT007 (and his missus) and VA on Twitter. VA's prolific, TT not so much for the moment.
 
OT: I enjoyed this "A Recipe for Training Neural Networks" from Karpathy. Kinda puts some flesh and blood on the bones of the FSD work going on now. Plus, he's entertaining.
Some snips:
"The first step to training a neural net is to not touch any neural net code at all and instead begin by thoroughly inspecting your data. This step is critical. I like to spend copious amount of time (measured in units of hours) scanning through thousands of examples, understanding their distribution and looking for patterns. Luckily, your brain is pretty good at this. One time I discovered that the data contained duplicate examples. Another time I found corrupted images / labels. I look for data imbalances and biases."
^^
Maybe now we're in FSD production hell?

hyper-parameter optimization
. There is a large number of fancy bayesian hyper-parameter optimization toolboxes around and a few of my friends have also reported success with them, but my personal experience is that the state of the art approach to exploring a nice and wide space of models and hyperparameters is to use an intern :). Just kidding.


Now that the new hardware is going into cars, Karpathy is where the rubber meets the road for FSD and I continue to follow him as much as I can. He seems well grounded and extremely well suited to this task.

From what I get out of this read, I'm leaning towards more linear progress on the autonomy front. I agree with various here that FSD, in a Tesla, is initially a fantastic driver's aid and that alone will sell cars and increase Tesla's lead. Not looking towards "sleep in back seat" mode for a long while and I don't think it needs to come soon.
As far as Tesla Network goes, I'm enthusiastic but concerned about backlash effects from the public. e.g. Taxi drivers lost jobs to Uber drivers who lost jobs to Robotaxis (a compound of two bad names IMO). If Robotaxi becomes a social contract road-kill event, that's gonna hurt TSLA since the news narrative loves these stories because they're not abstract (Mom loses Lyft job to Tesla robot owned by other Tesla robots owned by EVilCorp™).

OnT: Yeah, I know stop-loss is a dirty word around here but I've exited at numerous places in the last 3 months, bought back some and then SL out of those. It removes some of the emotion for me and I stay away for awhile. My plan, set in motion in Feb was to stay away until after ER. I bought a little recently at low $260s thinking the FCA thing was gonna help the bad deliveries. But no. So, I'm sitting with about 40% of my trading shares as cash or stock in DIS, EDIT, ARKK etc. I'll buy back more when momentum seems to have shifted based on real news. I do miss Hogfighter's Negativity Index. Perhaps the needle is just pegged lately no not much of an indicator? Still have a bunch of shares tho. Not advice in any way.
Cheers to the longs.
 
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Geez I backed up the truck yesterday, missed out on a couple of shares extra, I guess.

Man, I thought the street fight was like last year and we were gettin out of the 4th ring of hell. Appears as though the fear of Tesla has gone up by a couple of orders of magnitude and opportunity knocked for another sucker punch to the kidney.

Would kinda cool if someone piled on to probe the naked shorting:rolleyes:... (an Investor can dream, right?)

Outta ammo for a couple of weeks... RATS:mad:

No margin stuff. Long and strong...

BUY! HOLD! retire early!

Fire Away!

P.S. Unpilot is right, when ya turn the wipers to high NoA thinks there’s adverse WX;)
 
Ever wonder how much manipulation is involved with Tesla stock? Check out today's activity for options expiring today. Many options have volume greater than their total open interest going into today, and the moves in the options are enormous on a percentage basis. Between 22K and 26K puts traded today at strikes of 230 - 240. That's equivalent to 2.2 - 2.6 million shares per strike. Overall 115K puts traded from 230-240 strikes - equivalent to 11.5MM shares. That's $2.75 Billion of stock. Not only that, but you don't have to worry about borrowing stock to avoid naked shorting (not that they care). So you can trade incredible size in TSLA without even worrying about margin - all you have to do is buy the put. And if the traders were wrong on the magnitude of the day's move, they were only risking very small amounts of money. This strategy is ideal for high priced stocks, like TSLA.

EG: Assume I think that breaking support below 245 has the potential to cause a sharp drop. What do I do? Well, let's say you bought 5000 240 puts early in the day. They opened at $0.94. Say you bought 5000 puts at $1.50. The entire bet cost $750K. For that you get to bet that 500,000 shares of TSLA fall on the day. That's $120MM of stock. And you control the bet for $750K. That's 160 to 1 leverage. Think about that for a second. OK, so now the stock does break (why not, you're shorting the heck out it at the same time). Now it keeps dropping, and you take profits at $5 (the $240 puts traded as high as $8.85). So now for your $750K bet you made $4 per option - that's $4 times 500,000 shares - a pretty tidy $2MM profit. $2MM profit on a bet of $750K is not a bad day's work, is it? But that's only part of it.

The calls were equally active. Well, does that mean you're bullish, you may wonder? It may, but it's also the way to hedge your puts. If you're pressing a short bet, buy some calls. If the stock runs against you, book some profits on the calls. If it keeps going down, all you're doing is cutting into your profits, but it gives you the opportunity to keep pressing your bet. So imagine you bought all those $240 puts and they're trading at $3.50 You have a nice profit ($1MM), but you think you can do better. So you buy some $240 calls to hedge your puts. The stock keeps falling, you scale out of your puts from $5-7, instead of selling them all at $5. Why? Because you have some upside protection from your calls. If the stock runs, you don't have to panic.

Think I'm wrong about this? Sure, I could be, but doesn't it seem a bit odd that the bad news was out long before today, yet the stock held up until now? Why? Well, today's the day to get the maximum leverage out of your option trades, and if something goes wrong you can flatten your position before the weekend. To top it off you know all the players are in today - so the volume is great, and you can adjust your positions quickly.

This is a typical hedge fund/short seller strategy. When stocks break support, especially on expiration days, pile in and hold on for the ride. Scale out as you make your profits, and roll down to another strike. Keep playing until the move is over.
 
It is revealing to pay attention to how AutoLine views the EV marketplace. This link from yesterday.

Listen particularly at minute 1:48 where the EV marketplace is discussed. They are calling for an EV disaster for Detroit.

AD #2581 – Whole EV Segment Drops, Could Satellite Images Make 3D Maps? Challenger Sales Pull Away From Camaro

I think part of what we are seeing in this recurring discussion of demand is that the marketplace is lukewarm to EVs. Opposition marketing has been effective. There is a fear that there is some end to early adopters and that demand may slide one day. Do we really know the answer to this or does it remain a bit of a question. There is no way to know.

I think it is the same with FSD. Do people really want it? Surely many do but how deep is the interest. Andy Grove of Intel used to say that inflection points are revealed when a product is 10x better. I think EVs meet that criteria but the larger world may not be there yet for FSD.

I think Jobs had success with smartphones by linking to an existing passion - music. Music was the known passion that could pull an unwitting public out of a rut into a new realm. Maybe FSD should be linked to something as passion-filled as music. Or something else...
Yeah, it’s called travel w/o getting on a plane and being able to sleep/work along the way. Or if you are getting older being able to travel w/o driving. It can’t come soon enough.