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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

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The world-wide grid is a practical alternative to SEASONAL storage. Where I live, on the Winter solstice we get about 7 hrs per day of sunlight, and the solar azimuth at noon is about 10 degrees. Guess how much battery storage I need to power my home through 5 months of hard Winter? Guess again after allowing for energy used by a ground source heat pump:

1,500 KWh per person per home. 2x if powering a heat pump. That's over 200x the capacity of a v2 Powerwall. Northerners need grid power in Winter.

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When its cold and dark here in the Great White North, its sunny with long days in the Atacama desert. Running UHVDC cables from Tierra del Feugo to Fairbanks connects the backbone of the Americas with seasonally invariant solar power.

Now, let's solve the politcs because this tech is a no-brainer (therefore challenging for narrow-minded Pols)

Cheers!

I agree batteries aren’t the complete answer. What about abundant local resources? After all a power cord from Canada to the tip of South America would run across a number of governments territory. I would hate to see one of those governments cutting the cord, or threatening to do so.

Below is a map of US wind resources. It shows net capacity when using tall (110 meter) turbines. Canadian wind resources appear to be plentiful if the wind continues to blow across the border. Would developing this resource be beneficial? I understand there are about 300 turbines today. They provide a few percent of Canada’s power. Wouldn’t a large build out be quicker?

Edit: add current data

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Musk is thinking of Robotaxis, he did an entire presentation about them. People who purchase cars do so mainly for the convenience of having a car always ready. If Robotaxis can make each trip seem like not a major expenditure and can be 95% as convenient as having a car right there, then most urban dwellers will use them instead of having a car. Even if that goal is achieved, it will take some time for adaptation so the private ownership with the car working for you could be a transition phase. We won't know until the network becomes reality.

Cities would be in gridlock with the added miles driven by Musk's vision. Fortuenetly there is time to figure out how to regulate autonomous vehicles.
 
(If I had to bet on a consumer electronics manufacturer getting into EVs, I'd actually guess LG, based on some of the moves they're trying to make to protect their market, and the amount of engineering they did on the Bolt. Basically, do the HTC strategy, of moving out of the shadows of building everyone else's stuff, and sell under their own brand.)
If so, LG had better get its service under control. My experience with LG service makes Tesla's worst service look wonderful.
 
I agree batteries aren’t the complete answer. What about abundant local resources? After all a power cord from Canada to the tip of South America would run across a number of governments territory. I would hate to see one of those governments cutting the cord, or threatening to do so.

Below is a map of US wind resources. It shows net capacity when using tall (110 meter) turbines. Canadian wind resources appear to be plentiful if the wind continues to blow across the border. Would developing this resource be beneficial? I understand there are about 300 turbines today. They provide a few percent of Canada’s power. Wouldn’t a large build out be quicker?
Wind and solar both need battery backups. Wind generations is primarily at night which is great for EVs and reduces the battery requirement, so it shouldn't be an either/or situation, both are needed. I believe that solar can be deployed quicker, and cheaper, than wind because of the panel size compared to the turbine blade size (those things are huge, so transportation is slower and more expensive--besides the truck, pilot vehicles are necessary for wind). Also wind needs an more extensive environmental impact study (bird migration patterns) in order to be safe.
 
Cities would be in gridlock with the added miles driven by Musk's vision. Fortuenetly there is time to figure out how to regulate autonomous vehicles.
I doubt it. There shouldn't be all that many added miles as the robotaxis would just park and wait for another ride. Even if every car when home after each ride, they would be going the opposite direction. And all the robotaxi is doing is displacing a car that's already on the streets.
 
Everything you say is true... but... They ARE forced to change so they will. At this point the wind is in their sails and they are making headway.

Your concern about their capital is very overstated. A large percentage of the car is still a car be it an ICE or an EV. Only the motor and battery are different in reality. People convert literally any car made to an EV by replacing the motor and adding the battery. Done. Do you really think the major car makers can't figure out how to do that?

Electric cars made by the majors might get 5% less range, or have half the horsepower, but these things are not essential. They do know how to design cars people want to buy. Don't you think Toyota will know how to sell EVs? They presently sell some 10 million (ballpark) cars a year. In a few years every size and shape of vehicle they sell will be an EV.

This isn't just going to hit Tesla. I expect some present brands of cars to go away or be assimilated by the Borg.

EVs only share 10-20% of components with ICEs. Despite looking similar, they are a completely different product, and Tesla also has a completely different business model.

Tesla's EV powertrain + battery costs are closer to ICE powertrain costs than any other company's EV Powertrain cost is to Tesla's. Tesla is far ahead on every front and getting further ahead every year.

Summary on how Tesla is leading in Powertrain/Battery tech:

Before I start a very long post on exactly how I think Tesla is winning in EV powertrain costs, just a reminder how significant Tesla’s $4-6k cost advantage is. ICE OEMs normally make around $1k EBIT per car, while luxury cars can be $2-3k. If an ICE OEM had the same cost advantage vs other ICE OEMs for ICE cars their profit per car would be 5x higher. And Tesla’s $4-6k cost advantage here is on powertrain alone – they have other significant savings including from not advertising, not using dealerships, using an online first sales model, higher vertical integration of non-powertrain auto manufacturing and higher non-powertrain manufacturing innovation.

Relative to the Chevy Bolt I estimate Tesla Model 3’s $4.1k powertrain cost advantage comes from roughly: 1) $1.6k lower cell costs, 2) $1.4k lower pack (non cell) costs 3) $1.2k better wheel to wheel efficiency (mostly this), weight & drag. On top of this Tesla’s powertrain performance, longevity and likely safety advantage all come for free.

How does Tesla beat ICE OEMs efforts in each of these categories?


Cheaper battery cells.

Tesla’s three key advantages are 1) ability to use stripped back simplified cylindrical cells, 2) ability to safely use the in principle more dangerous NCA chemistry and 3) economies of scale (including standardized cell size unlike prismatic cell sizes which vary with battery pack design).

The core of 1 & 2 is that Tesla is able to use simplified cylindrical cells (with no safety systems) and NCA chemistry because it has far superior battery management software (including fleet learning benefit) and hardware – it shifts cell costs into battery pack IP (and no ICE OEMs are even attempting to catch up on this path).

Cylindrical battery cells
Advantages:

  • Cheaper to manufacture.
  • Has the least components and simplest manufacturing process (8 components vs up to 30 for prismatic cells which are now mostly being adopted by the industry).
  • Cylindrical is the most mature technology and has the most automated manufacturing process with highest utilization rates in manufacturing steps.
  • Tesla’s NCA cylindrical cells have by far the highest volumetric energy density, I think in part due to tighter cathode winding in cylindrical structures. This should reduce pack size and hence pack (non cell) weight.
  • One cell design can fit multiple different battery packs and vehicle programs. Pouch/Prismatic generally have to be designed differently for each program so get much less economies of scale. For example CATL makes 34 different shapes of cell while BYD makes 10.
  • Cylindrical cells generally need less safety specific components, but Tesla’s cells are able to strip these back further - Tesla's cells lack a CID (vent ) and a positive temperature coefficient device. They can do this in part due to the pack design and software.
  • Mechanical stability against internal swelling.
  • Smaller cells can allow better thermal management.
  • The winding process can be done faster than stacking for other cell types, they can also be wound tighter.
Disadvantages :
  • Limitation in cell size means a huge number of cells per car which makes module assembly much more difficult and makes cell balancing much more difficult. Model 3 has c.4000 cells vs c.300 pouch cells in the Bolt.
  • More cells per car also means more chance for something to go wrong.
  • Cylindrical cells have lower gravimetric energy density (for equal chemistry) I think mostly because smaller cylindrical cells need more housing material. This is largely compensated because it is easier to use higher cathode energy density chemistries in cylindrical cells.
  • Cell testing is more expensive because more cells need to be connected and tested.

Tesla’s NCA chemistry has the highest nickel cathode content and the highest cathode energy density of any EV. It has much less cobalt than NCM designs which reduces raw material prices and reduces supply risk. Its disadvantage is the chemistry is less stable relative to lower Nickel content/lower cathode energy density cells – this is another reason Tesla uses cylindrical cells – the smaller canned cylindrical format helps limit this instability.

I think Tesla's current NCA cathode chemistry is Nickel 93% Cobalt 5% and Aluminium 2%. This compares to most common NMC 532 at 50% Nickel, 30% Manganese and 20% Cobalt.

The rest of the industry is starting to transition to higher Nickel NMC 811 (now c.7% of China cathode production) which is closer to NCA. However this chemistry will face increased manufacturing costs and increased safety challenges, particularly given the industry does not have the battery pack expertise to use smaller cylindrical cells which limit the chemical instability.

Is anyone copying Tesla’s cell approach?
No Auto OEM is trying currently. For example in China in July just 5% of battery KWh in EVs was cylindrical cells (and this was still mostly 18650) and NCA is only around 3% of total cells. Model 3 cells are 257WH/kg. CATL’s highest energy density cell is 236WH/kg and BYD doesn’t have any >220WH/kg. They both largely make prismatic cells.
Some startups such as Rivian say they will be using cylindrical cells, but exactly what chemistry they use and whether they use the same extremely stripped back cell design as Tesla is unclear.​

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Cheaper battery packs

Tesla’s battery pack strategy is very similar to its Autopilot strategy. It is all about vertical integration, software and fleet learning. Tesla’s pack costs benefit from a lean and high tech design as well as from the high volumetric energy density of its cells, but also because it has shifted cell/pack hardware complexity into better (likely neural net based) software. The Munro teardown found Model 3 pack cost at $30/kWh, half of the $60/kWh in the Chevy Bolt, despite Model 3 pack’s ability to use higher energy density cathode chemistries and much simpler and cheaper battery cell designs.

Tesla is the only automaker that can continuously collect data from its customer fleet, it is also the only automaker that has designed its own software, semiconductors and other pack components in-house (normally these are outsourced to multiple suppliers). For the battery it can collect information on driving style, charging, battery temperature, battery capacity changes, voltage, degradation etc. This statistical data is fed into Tesla’s BMS to precisely manage tiny differences in each cylindrical cell’s performances and provide equilibrium for the overall system. Tesla’s BMS software use multiple in-house designed ASIC chips called batman and robin for cell balancing. I think it is highly likely Tesla’s BMS is neural net based with data fed into a neural net to optimize management and balancing across the 4,000+ cells.

The BMS software delivers:
  • High useable capacity of the battery cells.
  • High and safe charge rates.
  • High safety despite the less stable high energy density chemistry. (The software limits flammability risks - it ensures temperature is not allowed to rise and prevents metals deposits forming)
  • High safety despite simplified cells without in-built safety features.
  • Limited degradation and long life (in miles) of Tesla’s batteries relative to the competition. This benefits from Tesla’s precise cell balancing.
  • Resilience to a certain failure/error rate of cells (many competitor’s designs require perfection to operate safely or at all).
Together with the better software, Tesla limits (as far as we know eliminates) the dangers of high Nickel cathodes by using pack materials with low heat conductivity and using inbuilt thermometers.

Moving so much of the cell/pack tech/management into software rather than hardware means Tesla can use the same hardware designs for multiple different products - semi/storage/performance cars/pickup/Model 3 etc, giving better economies of scale.

Tesla’s reliance on fleet learning, vertical integration and software as the core of its battery strategy gives it a huge advantage against ICE OEMs and as far as I know Tesla is now so far ahead nobody is even trying to copy their approach. ICE OEMs do not have the vertical integration to design a harmonized overall system. They do not have ability to collect data from their fleet. They do not have software or AI expertise to move to a software first approach. Unlike Tesla they do not have 10 years of data to feed into their system to enable use of cheaper cells and higher risks chemistries. Given the bad publicity surrounding EV fires, it is extremely high risk to roll out a new high risk battery chemistry/pack design without first having the fleet data to optimize the software to ensure safety – I just think it is extremely difficult for anyone to risk following Tesla at this stage. As Tesla bears UBS write: “Despite Panasonic's cost advantage we expect to see limited adoption by other OEMs. A sophisticated battery management system (Tesla produces in-house) is required for the format and we do not think this is easily replicable.”​


Better battery to wheel efficiency

All Tesla cars again significantly beat all the competition on this key metric. The cost savings from better powertrain efficiency can easily be higher than savings on cheaper battery cells. More efficiency means lower battery size for the same range which means lower battery costs – this can be worth as much as $4k relative to cars such as the I-Pace.

Tesla wins here for 2 main reasons: 1) It has the most experience and best engineers with the best hardware designs and 2) It has the most vertical integration and best software talent which allows design of a harmonious powertrain.

Some specific hardware breakthroughs Tesla has made include the use of a high efficiency silicon carbide inverter, a breakthrough permanent magnet motor design (willing to pivot from its previous expertise in induction motors), high tech cooling design, reduced cabling and combination of multiple hardware components into the same housing with a modular and compact design.

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On the software side again, the vertical integration and fleet learning across the entire EV powertrain has allowed continuous improvements and efficiencies. Overall, including battery and other powertrain, software has driven around half of the 40% improvement in Tesla’s powertrain over the past 5-6 years.

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Better weight (both battery pack capacity/kg and motor power/kg)

Tesla’s battery pack capacity/kg beats the competition I think in part due to the better volumetric energy density of its cells – which requires less pack casing. E-tron and EQC battery packs are about 2kg/kWh heavier than Model 3, which can add up to around 200kg on the car which has a negative impact on range, acceleration and handling.
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Model 3 also has the best power-to-weight ratio of its electric drive unit (motor and gearbox) of any electric vehicle in the market.
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Better drag coefficients.

Model 3's drag coefficient is just 0.23 which is the best of all cars in its segment. Tesla obviously has extremely smart engineers and designers working to minimise drag co-efficient while maintaining aesthetics. ICE OEMs are often handicapped here, partially because their vehicles and brand has a distinctive “look” which they are trying to maintain despite the shift to EVs. ICE OEMs are also handicapped because many have decided to build flexible platforms (to avoid properly committing to EVs) which can be used for ICEs, EVs or PHEVs, rather than being designed specifically towards EVs.​


ICE OEMs will never be able to catch up with Tesla, they have the wrong culture, the wrong business model, the wrong strategy, the wrong investors. They don't even seem to know yet that Tesla is using fleet learning (and likely neural nets) to drive its powertrain tech. Many will survive however if they act quickly and invest in the transition now while they still have ICE cash cows to fund it.
So far no ICE OEM is doing any more than necessary to meet emissions limits/EV quotas and reduce fines. All their EV programs are negative gross margin, but justified because each EV sold can save them up to $10k of emissions fines.

Summary of why the EV race is such an uphill challenge for ICE OEMs:

Why ICE OEMs are handicapped relative to new EV companies
  • At ICE OEMs most car components and most of the production process is outsourced. This reduces share of the value chain and reduces profit per car. It also makes the company much less agile to rapid changes in technology.
  • EVs only share 10%-20% of components and production process with ICEs.
  • EVs will be lower margin products for ICE OEMs for several years. EV product launches will heavily cannibalize a brands equivalent higher margin ICE car creating a large disincentive for high quality EV launches. Currently all ICE OEMs sell as few EVs as possible while meeting their legal emissions mandates. This is why their cars are all low volume, sub standard offerings.
  • Sales channel is outsourced to dealerships who are not incentivized to sell EVs. Dealerships make a majority of their profits from maintenance revenue, which is much lower for EVs and requires different expertise.
  • ICE service networks and service technicians do not have training in electronics and battery tech and are not able to service EVs without significant investment and significant new hires.
  • Key IP and barrier to entry in the auto industry has been engine design and lack of funding for car startups. Engines are now redundant and Tesla has proved the investment case for investing in EV disruptors.
  • ICE OEMs have a 50 year+ culture of working towards minimal annual incremental improvements rather than rapid innovation. Not suited to the rapid change needed to follow the EV/battery & motor experience curves.
  • Unionized and inflexible to automation and modernization.
  • Significant historic pension and other liabilities built over 50+ years.
  • Own $trns of legacy ICE assets, many of which will have to be written down as part of the EV transition.
  • Mostly trying to fit EVs into their old production lines and existing designs, EV companies have flexibility to design from scratch and make full use of the potential safety and ease of manufacturing improvements.
  • Own a short term loan portfolio of ICE leases and auto loans which needs to be refinanced continuously, but the underlying assets will depreciate rapidly with the EV transition
  • Shareholders value short term profits, dividends and share buybacks and are not supportive of short term pain for a long term vision, or investing heavily in the future.
  • Traditional brands are tarnished with a history of killing 1-4 million people per year from pollution, in some cases cheating their legal mandate for profit.
 
EVs only share 10-20% of components with ICEs....




I:
That depends on platform design, among other things. Right now VAG, Chery and Hyundai, among others, have platforms designed from ground up to be adaptable for multiple powertrain options. Without question other things remaining equal the optimal choice is a specific platform for each powertrain option, but all other things are not equal. The Capex required for a single purpose built option for each powertrain is a multiple of that required for a more versatile choice.
VAG is a stellar example of that modular design with engines that share most components between everything from Fox to Bugatti and Lamborghini. Those principles can work equally well or even better with BEV's. Tesla is already showing that.

...

ICE OEMs will never be able to catch up with Tesla, they have the wrong culture, the wrong business model, the wrong strategy, the wrong investors...

It may look that way today but we just might see a different picture in 2023. Don't underestimate the power of a desire for a cleaner world. That is not obvious today in the US nor in Australia, but the clear trend towards less fossil fuels is inexorable.

Obviously Tesla is ahead compared with an US-based or European OEM, and far, far ahead of the Japanese. To imagine that Tesla is immune to real competition from competent and determined competitors is to ignore teh transition happening at VAG, but much more so the position of BYD, BAIC and every JAC, Chery and Geely, not to mention battery producers.

Bluntly Tesla is the high end champion, but we already see Indians (the I-Pace), Chinese (Volvo 40) plus many highly successful builders of everything from tuk-tuks to giant mining BEV's with busses becoming commonplace.

If Tesla is to continue to thrive all these others need also to thrive.

Lastly, the merger of PSA with FCA will suddenly allow devotion of serious effort to BEV. The world loves to write them off but mssrs Elkann and Tavares are both very intelligent and determined...
 
So the way this works is that all revenue tied to not yet delivered features is market as "deferred revenue" - and when any portion of this is recognized, the accountants will mark part of it as "cost of goods". The difference will increase the bottom line. Tesla doesn't have to reserve anything else - the cost of goods are generally recognized when the revenue is recognized.

I believe that even with the HW3 board cost and service work included the profit margin should be above 90%, so it's not a problem for much of the $500m to be turned into GAAP profits. Also, with every passing quarter the proportion of FSD revenue that was collected on HW3-enabled cars is increasing, and the CoGs of replacing all HW2->HW3 stays mostly constant.
Ah, I see what you're attempting to do is to estimate the gross margin Tesla will declare as profit on the $500M in deferred revenue. There are two data points which should help:
  1. During Q1 2019, Tesla had a $2K USD special offer on FSD, which expired at the end of Q1. FSD computer was not yet shipping, so we can use the $2K retail price to put an upper bound on Tesla's expected cost for the required hdw upgrade (including labor)
  2. We can estimate the max. number of vehicles the upgrade could apply to as fol:
  • No Tesla's produced before HW2 are upgradable (all cars before Oct 2016)
  • The following Telsa will NOT require hdw upgrades (should claim 100% margin):
    • all Model S/X produced after Mar 2019 shipped with FSD cmptr
    • all Model 3s produced after Apr 2019 shipped with FSD cmptr
HTH. Cheers!
 
Don't you think Toyota will know how to sell EVs? They presently sell some 10 million (ballpark) cars a year. In a few years every size and shape of vehicle they sell will be an EV.

This isn't just going to hit Tesla. I expect some present brands of cars to go away or be assimilated by the Borg.

Sure, they know how to sell cars. I have no problem imagining they will build millions of EVs in a few years with frame, body, internals and electric motors. The only thing they will be missing will be the batteries. Maybe they will sell them with the a sticker like toys in the toy shop:
BATTERIES NOT INCLUDED
51VJ8cXkQuL._AC_SY400_.jpg


Bottomline: Tesla spent several years to build the biggest output Li-ion battery factory on earth and they can still only make less than half a million EVs per year currently. They need to pump that production much higher to sell millions. The legacy car makers have not even started building their battery factories, there is no way they will have enough batteries for millions of EVs in a few years.
 
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How do people watch anything EV related on 'top gear'? There is no gear in any real EV. In a sense top gear has to at least change its name to survive in the EV future.

Welcome to Top Gear, your ultimate source in utterly-faked (down to copied-off-the-internet VBox data) anti-Tesla videos.


He didn't even mention the fact that if the top speed is 155mph like they claim, then it's not a Raven. That VBox data is damning. Fake race. Liars. And to think I was giving them the benefit of the doubt of making honest mistakes.
 
I agree with this. Not very popular here, but I haven’t heard any rational arguments against it. We know it’s true, Apple even offered to buy Tesla at $240 a few years ago. Imo it would be good for both Tesla and Apple, see my post here:
Apple Confirms 190 Layoffs From Self-Driving Car Project

Imo the biggest threats to Tesla are the following:
-Us being wrong and VW/Toyota/etc will eat Tesla’s lunch. Given that nothing has happened in 7years and Tesla scaling rapidly it seems unlikely.
-Alphabet/Deepmind/Waymo solving FSD and Tesla being unable to do so for some reason. Seems unlikely to me as Tesla has demoed FSD many times over the years and seems to be making steady progress and Waymo not accelerating their development.
-Apple doing something secret and one day releases a complete great product and scales up manufacturing through Magma Steyr/Foxconn. Never underestimate Apple. But if they do I think it would take years from reveal to mass production. Imo still open.
-Samsung or some other large IT company joining the race

The biggest threat to Tesla is other car companies flooding the market with EVs, along with their bad habbit of discounting. Today, when one thinks of EV they think Tesla, because frankly, its the only real capable EV on the market.. How long will Tesla hold such strong brand power, that is the question. What happens when the consumer has a choice between a Toyota, Honda or Tesla capable EV?
 
Anybody else notice that Adam Jonas never once mentions the battery supply chain (or lack thereof) in support his latest thesis that "Mega-Tech Giants" will partner with established Automakers?

"What kind of car company can compete with Tesla?" | Bloomberg TV


It's all about the batterys. Your whiz-bang tech venture will sink like lead without a robust, reliable lithium battery supply chain
 
The biggest threat to Tesla is other car companies flooding the market with EVs, along with their bad habbit of discounting. Today, when one thinks of EV they think Tesla, because frankly, its the only real capable EV on the market.. How long will Tesla hold such strong brand power, that is the question. What happens when the consumer has a choice between a Toyota, Honda or Tesla capable EV?
In twenty years when Toyota, Honda, etc. might get around to matching Tesla, Tesla will be just as powerful as those companies--always assuming they still exist.
 

There were 2 things that struck me about these sales figures. First, the 4903 Model X sales is impressive. From what I can tell, that's 2nd most of any month in 2019. Would be awesome to see the X selling 50-60k per year. Maybe the price reduction a few months ago is finally having an impact. Along those lines, the S sales complimented the X sales nicely. The total between the 2 was 7896, which would be about a 95,000 yearly rate. I sure hope these numbers continue in the last quarter.

Secondly, what other car does Tesla currently sell? The total of the 3, S, and X sales doesn't add up to the total presented.

Model 3 - 39201
Model S - 2983
Model X - 4903
Total 47,087

But the total for Tesla is reported at 49821. What gives?
 
All this talk about profitability and the coming competition got me thinking. One question...

Do we know for sure that any of the other EV manufacturers are actually turning a profit off the sale of their EVs? If they are what are their margins? Until they can demonstrate profitability from EVs then they are not in any way sustainable and could not represent any significant shift away from the status quo ICE focused product line up.

A compliance car, or in this case, an "improve my image to the public" car is meaningless if it does not represent an opportunity to make money. So...have any of the others demonstrated profitability with their EVs? Leaf, Bolt, iPace, Taycan, Zoe, eTron? Any of these making money? Because if they are not then they are in no way competition for Tesla because they are not sustainable in their product lines as the public's demand for EVs rises.

Thoughts?

Dan

It comes down to the battery pack cost. The car companies have a bigger motivator than Tesla to bring down battery pack costs. Tesla is trying to save the world, the car companies are not, they are trying to make money. All the gadgets and technology we have around us that improves our lives is because someone was trying to make money, not save the world.