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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

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So basically shorts will be completely gone until S&P inclusion right? I am expecting 100% of the shares to be covered?

First time ever there will be two large groups of people willing to buy Tsla at any price, short sellers and Indexers.
I am thinking the same thing. Don't short sellers have around 2 days to cover right now? Who would cover and open a new short position before December 21st? It would make much more sense to try again at the end of December....
 
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A Non-stock guy like me can't figure out anything but that this is worth watching.
And I venture a guess that all you stock guys can only think as much.
I bet not a one of you can get within $5 of the pre-market high for this morning?
or within $10 of the high tomorrow? Most would even get the low wrong if you couldn't say the opening price.
it is good to be a HODLer, now.
 
Completely wild conjecture on my part, but there was an odd thing in Berkshire hathaways 13-F filing today: They had one new position blacked out as "it would move the market too much if it was revealed" apparently they were able to get permission to do this.

BRK's 13F filed today is here: https://fintel.io/i13f/berkshire-hathaway/2020-09-30-0

Nothing is blacked out and Tesla is not listed.
 
Thinking out loud here:

A lot of people seem to be talking about this causing a bubble and discussing what price is the best price to sell at before it drops back down again. However, maybe I am misunderstanding but I have a feeling this isn't what will happen in the case of TSLA.

Because in a regular bubble, you have a large influx of buyers, who bid up the price until it hits a peak and then people start selling until the price goes back to an equilibrium which reflects the true value of the company (which hasn't changed much).

However in our current situation, we have a large influx of buyers (index funds) who aren't buying to speculate on a price increase with plans to sell later, but rather they are buying to hold long term. As they attempt to buy approximately 15% of the float, this will bid up the price (same as a bubble), however none of those funds are planning on selling at the peak. So, wouldn't the price just settle at an equilibrium near the peak rather than near the original price? (maybe 20% below the peak as I'm sure there would be some bubble chasers mixed in there)

My rationale here is that I am trying to think practically about where are those millions of shares going to come from? Not from insiders or HODLers who think that the company will soon be making trillions in revenue off terafactories and autonomy, but rather the people selling will be those who think the company's true value is close to what the stock price is now (or within a few hundred dollars of it). And so what will effectively happen is that within the next 30 days, 15% of the float will transfer from people who don't believe the company is worth $1 trillion+ to investors who are effectively HODLers (index funds who will never sell, no matter the price), and these index funds aren't planning on selling at the top of the bubble and neither are the actual HODLers or the insiders. So who is going to be the one to do all the selling to get the stock price back down again?

My own rebuttal:
This simply reduces the effective float by 15% (which will cause an initial bubble) however the price will settle back down and ultimately be determined by the smaller group of shares that are sold back and forth on a daily basis between investors at whatever price the market thinks they are worth (and the fact that the number of actively traded shares is smaller shouldn't change the intrinsic value of them). E.g. the index funds will buy up all the shares they want, which will temporarily increase the stock price, but after the index funds have all those shares, the few remaining people who are interested in selling will still know that the company is only worth $400 billion and so will be happy to sell for between $400-500 a share (and that will be the price the market is happy to pay).

Summary:
I am torn between a supply and demand theory (i.e. S&P 500 inclusion permanently reduces supply and therefore permanently increases price)

And a true value theory (i.e. a share will only be bought and sold in the long term for what the intrinsic value is, and therefore S&P 500 inclusion should only cause a temporary pop).

Anyone have any ideas as to which theory is more correct?
 
Thinking out loud here:

A lot of people seem to be talking about this causing a bubble and discussing what price is the best price to sell at before it drops back down again. However, maybe I am misunderstanding but I have a feeling this isn't what will happen in the case of TSLA.

Because in a regular bubble, you have a large influx of buyers, who bid up the price until it hits a peak and then people start selling until the price goes back to an equilibrium which reflects the true value of the company (which hasn't changed much).

However in our current situation, we have a large influx of buyers (index funds) who aren't buying to speculate on a price increase with plans to sell later, but rather they are buying to hold long term. As they attempt to buy approximately 15% of the float, this will bid up the price (same as a bubble), however none of those funds are planning on selling at the peak. So, wouldn't the price just settle at an equilibrium near the peak rather than near the original price? (maybe 20% below the peak as I'm sure there would be some bubble chasers mixed in there)

My rationale here is that I am trying to think practically about where are those millions of shares going to come from? Not from insiders or HODLers who think that the company will soon be making trillions in revenue off terafactories and autonomy, but rather the people selling will be those who think the company's true value is close to what the stock price is now (or within a few hundred dollars of it). And so what will effectively happen is that within the next 30 days, 15% of the float will transfer from people who don't believe the company is worth $1 trillion+ to investors who are effectively HODLers (index funds who will never sell, no matter the price), and these index funds aren't planning on selling at the top of the bubble and neither are the actual HODLers or the insiders. So who is going to be the one to do all the selling to get the stock price back down again?

My own rebuttal:
This simply reduces the effective float by 15% (which will cause an initial bubble) however the price will settle back down and ultimately be determined by the smaller group of shares that are sold back and forth on a daily basis between investors at whatever price the market thinks they are worth (and the fact that the number of actively traded shares is smaller shouldn't change the intrinsic value of them). E.g. the index funds will buy up all the shares they want, which will temporarily increase the stock price, but after the index funds have all those shares, the few remaining people who are interested in selling will still know that the company is only worth $400 billion and so will be happy to sell for between $400-500 a share (and that will be the price the market is happy to pay).

Summary:
I am torn between a supply and demand theory (i.e. S&P 500 inclusion permanently reduces supply and therefore permanently increases price)

And a true value theory (i.e. a share will only be bought and sold in the long term for what the intrinsic value is, and therefore S&P 500 inclusion should only cause a temporary pop).

Anyone have any ideas as to which theory is more correct?
Both of them. And I quote F Scott Fitzgerald:

The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function.
 
Thinking out loud here:
Summary:
I am torn between a supply and demand theory (i.e. S&P 500 inclusion permanently reduces supply and therefore permanently increases price)

And a true value theory (i.e. a share will only be bought and sold in the long term for what the intrinsic value is, and therefore S&P 500 inclusion should only cause a temporary pop).

Anyone have any ideas as to which theory is more correct?

Disclaimer: I don't have a clue and nobody should take my advice or assume I know what I am talking about. But it seems like everyone who owns Tesla that I know of plans to hold until they die. If the price goes up on tesla nobody would sell.

If this was another company joining the s and p where a large number of shareholders didn't have the belief that the company being added to the sp500 would become the worlds largest company and that the bump in price reflected an a higher than realistic price, people would sell and it would go down.

Personally - not advice - I don't see a reason to sell Tesla ever. Musk says he is using Tesla to fund his personal mars ambitions. I doubt he'll ever sell Tesla. Someday - maybe, 20 years from now, maybe 6 years from now - Tesla will be a rewarding stock to own. I'm just here to see what I should be excited about at this point. Why sell?
 
I am going back and reading thru bookmarks for peoples thoughts on S&P inclusion and I noticed Mike has hit some pretty good numbers. Here's hoping his 2021 and S&P thoughts hold too. Great job Mike.

These are pre-split numbers.....

At the start of the year I did an evaluation based on product roadmap, production plans, competition, margins, expected free cash flow and various other factors that a fair market price for TSLA was in the $700 - $900 range. With reasonable execution and absent vast improvements by the competition and with no contribution from Tesla network their revenues would grow by 70% and free cash flow by a bit less than 100%. This would continue for several years. So that by the end of the year a fair market price would be $1350 - $1900.

Since then execution has been excellent (not just reasonable), the roadmap still looks good, production plans seem ahead of schedule, competition has been a big disappointment and margins on the Y look very good. So I would now put the end of year TSLA price at $1600 - $2200 and for the end of 2021 as $3200 - $4400. Similarly for 2022, after that I expect Tesla and TSLA to grow more slowly, but still much faster than their peers (Apple, Microsoft, Amazon).

If this evaluation is correct then the current share price is not high and even $2000 is only ahead by a few months, and being at such a price could continue without a significant drop until after Q4 earnings. A share price of $3000 in the next few months would be ahead by a year or so and one of $4000 by 18 months in both cases I would expect a correction back to something around $2000 by the end of the year.

For the share price to reach $4000 or above might happen due to a short squeeze and S&P 500 inclusion, but to stay there would be irrational. However "The market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent" applies in this case.

My current thoughts on strategy are to sell 1% of my holdings at $3500 and then another 1% for each $200 raise above that. The on the way down buy back shares. As I plan to buy a house in the next year it doesn't matter too much if I am left holding some cash, my UK capital gains tax allowance would allow selling about $30000 worth of shares tax free, which would be enough for a deposit on the house. That however is second best as I really plan to HODL with most of my shares.
 
Dave Lee's take on this historic announcement is really worth watching. His words on the travails of Tesla over the years, the way the outsider has beaten the establishment, and Tesla being a force for good are quite emotional! Overall a great watch and a lovely way to celebrate the moment.


Congrats all co-owners of this historic company! Amazing moment. Glad to celebrate together.
 
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First of all congratulations to all the longs and thank you Elon and valuable Tesla team for your drive and vision.

@Dacer, I agree with your thoughts on this wedge moving towards a new plateau not a bursting bubble. In the past year we’ve seen large run ups, but they’ve led to new higher plateaus as the intrinsic value of TSLA has increased based on exceptional performance.

Anyone who understands TSLA’s mission and/or has driven a Tesla/ owns Tesla energy products will not be satisfied with 200-500% appreciation as they will need to pay tax on their profits and then find a better place to safely park their earnings.

I think most people here would agree that the best is still yet to come with TSLA. We’ve endured so much FUD and years of being undervalued that a period of sideways trading will not deter us from HODLing for 2030+. Terafactories, RT, CT, increasing margins, and a clear and noble mission is absolutely priceless.
 
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I'm happy for everyone :)

I purposely have been taking a break from the forums because I was just getting annoyed at what I felt was not fair value being given and I didn't want to start or have any arguments....because everyone is entitled to what they feel is fair value.

Anyways...Congrats everyone!

It feels.....so.....damn....good
 
Just wondering if someone could educate me:

I see a lot of people anticipating on TSLA to jump massively between now and 21st Dec because of SP500 inclusion.
On 4th Sept 2020 spglobal announced that ETSY, TER and CTLT would be included in SP500 as of 21st Sept.
(https://www.spglobal.com/spdji/en/d...14656/1214656_finalmigraseptetsyctltter30.pdf)

Between 4th Sept and 21st Sept:
-ETSY: rose a bit from 112.04 on 4th to 116.01 on 21st
-TER: dropped a bit 78.60 on 4th to 76.92 on 21st
-CTLT: dropped quite a bit from 52.52 on 4th to 43.93 on 21st
Neither of them had any considerable action (spikes) between announcement and inclusion either...

I sure hope that the anticipated rise for TSLA is going to happen but I just wonder what the reasons would be for this to simply be a given, because why did the other 3 back in Sept not jump up then?
 
I see a lot of people anticipating on TSLA to jump massively between now and 21st Dec because of SP500 inclusion.
On 4th Sept 2020 spglobal announced that ETSY, TER and CTLT would be included in SP500 as of 21st Sept.
(https://www.spglobal.com/spdji/en/d...14656/1214656_finalmigraseptetsyctltter30.pdf)

Between 4th Sept and 21st Sept:
-ETSY: rose a bit from 112.04 on 4th to 116.01 on 21st
-TER: dropped a bit 78.60 on 4th to 76.92 on 21st
-CTLT: dropped quite a bit from 52.52 on 4th to 43.93 on 21st
Neither of them had any considerable action (spikes) between announcement and inclusion either...

I sure hope that the anticipated rise for TSLA is going to happen but I just wonder what the reasons would be for this to simply be a given, because why did the other 3 back in Sept not jump up then?

The biggest difference is that all three of them were just moving from the S&P400 to the S&P500, so they didn't require the need to buy in from zero shares. (Shares were just moving from one fund to another, with possibly just some additional shares bought/sold to get the correct percentage held.)