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Agree with you. If I remember my eco101 a positive demand shock is met with a price increase in the short term and a supply increase over the medium term.

Even though every EV being produced now is being sold immediately, the subsidy will increase the margins of ev sellers - who will then be able to pay more for EV parts to build the vehicles - and so on and so forth.

The result is that companies building non-EV widgets will look at those juicy EV widget prices and start researching/producing.

Tesla might be running at full speed to transition to EV but the entire world isn't - this is where subsidies help (Tesla just gets to bank the extra profits).

The flaw in the alternative thinking is assuming the supply response is capped, which it isn't. It just gets less and less efficient for every extra $ spent on front loading the transition.

@TheTalkingMule i disagreed to your post for the above reasons.

I know you think your analysis is correct, and I have no desire to get into a full-blown discussion of the net result of this kind of legislation but let me just point out that causes and effects are not always as simple to model as one might think.

As just one example, if it causes GM to ramp small battery hybrids into the millions and sell them profitably at low prices, like hotcakes, because they will be super cheap with a large subsidy and a small battery, it will not only increase traffic pollution as more people are able to afford to drive to work in their own ICE (cheap PHEV) car, but it could also cause an inefficient manufacturer that would have otherwise folded to remain in business. This manufacturer has an ICE production capacity measured in millions of units per year which will be subsidized to continue cranking out ICE vehicles, hybrids and gas guzzlers alike. All brand new with 10-15 year lifespans. Subsidies create market distortions that make the market less efficient at responding to the needs of the market. This is only one negative impact of many that I can see.

Things are not always as clear-cut as they might appear. The point of this bill is to keep ICE manufacturer's solvent and thus it will actually delay the transition to EV's.

If non-auto industry people (like most of us on TMC) saw this transition coming years ago, then those in the industry who resisted it (and are still resisting it in a back-handed way) should be left to pay the price for their delay and pass the reins to companies with the foresight to be responsive to market needs. This is why capitalism is so good. Further, every automaker had equal access to the original tax credits for their EV customers. The new bill doesn't even grant that!

It's not a problem for the American auto fleet to age while EV and battery production volumes rise to meet the needs. Indeed, it will be an environmental disaster to have millions of newer, perfectly useable ICE cars that no one wants because they became uneconomic to operate, are slow and clumsy, and smell toxic. Let's let the ICE cars that have already been built wear out, the companies who built them go bankrupt, and those companies who demonstrated innovation, foresight and good planning can take over the reins. We need competence running the critical infrastructure that is our auto-manufacturing industry, not subsidized, bloated incompetence.

I'm far from a person who disagrees with all subsidies, subsidies really can be used to encourage behavior that benefits us all, but they need to be used very judiciously. It doesn't mean subsidies are good if they subsidize production of things you believe in. It's actually complicated. And the proposed subsidies were proposed for the wrong reasons which is a good clue that they won't have the result I think you want.
 
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Innovator's Dilemma is real.


Ron-Burgandy.png
 
I think you are correct.

If Tesla were going to do a 1 year pre-order thing for the Model 2, I think it might be possible, but I don’t see that happening again. After the mess with the Cybertruck with it’s million+ order backlog and delays, I think Tesla is going to wait until they are very near ready to produce the $25k Tesla before announcing it.

Pre orders are great when you need to make sure you can fill the channel with orders before you start production, but at this point it’s clear the demand is there.

Rate-limiter on the compact vehicle would be factory space and batteries if it is a “boring” small version of 3/Y. Shanghai has been building (at Shanghai speed), so we might not be that far off from having production space.
Batteries are the wildcard, and the feasibility of the compact car is dependent on securing a large supply of cheap batteries, or being able to redirect batteries currently going into other vehicles because those vehicles will be upgraded to 4680s.

Tesla has shown they can ramp a derivative model quite quickly. The CT comparison is a little apples to oranges, IMHO.
 
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I think it's almost impossible Elon wouldn't have been teasing the reveal ahead of time and then introducing the car at an event himself. That's how every new Tesla vehicle reveal has occurred, and the 25k car is way too big just to be casually introduced.

Calling the Elon Musk Private Jet tracker.... If he's on the way to Shanghai , then 🚀
 
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Elon has previously stated:

1. there will be "no Model 2"
2. "nothing" is happening on 12/9

Therefore the new "smaller-than-a-model-3" will be called "nothing" and will be announced tomorrow.

Hence, "nothing" is happening "12/9".

There. Solved it.


NOT ADVICE.

Model Zero. Nothing matters.
 
I was thinking along those lines as well. He did recently say that "nothing mattered".

I know we don’t do advertising, but all of it seems killer from a marketing perspective.

Everyone’s clamoring about ”getting a zero.”
Zero emissions, of course.
Zero reasons not to go electric.
And nothing matters if we don’t stop climate change.
 
Reuters - 13:57 EST: Biden pledges end to gas-powered federal vehicle purchases by 2035

In response, here is what I just now wrote to the White House and those who represent me in Congress.

The president has announced his intention to build federal fleet of electric cars. Make certain they are largely Teslas. They are the most efficient and economical with the highest resale values. Teslas are by far the most American made. Tesla has built a huge network of charging stations that makes others unnecessary. Rental car company Hertz has chosen a fleet of Teslas. That should provide a hint to the government.
2035 is pretty much the same as never. By 2035 ICE vehicles will be almost all antiques.
 
I'd like to recommend this as a post of particular merit.

It's so very important to expose the linguistic baggage that impacts how we all frame EVs. The language of "EV adoption" does seem to perpetuate the idea that EVs have not arrived. This can mean different things depending on ones political view point, but as Tesla investors I think we do well to have confidence knowing that EVs are already the preferred technology and will soon become numerically dominant.
There are plenty of things to attack with regard to the current state of our discourse, however, getting upset over the phrase "EV adoption" seems to me like semantic hypersensitivity.

Also, I think we on this board need to keep in mind that we are still in the early adopter phase of this transition. BEV market share has not yet hit 10%!


We (users of this board) all see the trendline and know where the trail inevitably leads, but that is not true of the average consumer. Most still need to be convinced, the price needs to be right, and the total user experience needs to be better. As much as I love my Model 3, it is not as fast on road trips as an ICE. Also, there are not ubiquitous charging stations as there are fueling stations. There are certain high school sporting events where taking my car is a difficult proposition because of the placement of chargers.

At any rate, what term would we replace "EV adoption" with that wouldn't get hijacked by politicos immediately? BEV market share? BEV penetration? Green car sales? The relative percentage of electrified transport?

Further, "Used ICE values are inflated 30-40% simply because no one wants a stranded asset in 2025, even with interest rates at 0%!"

Used ICE values are high because they are not making ICE vehicles fast enough to satisfy demand. Most people in my area won't sell the used vehicles (light/medium duty trucks, especially) because they need the utility and don't know when they might be able to get the new truck. They are most certainly not waiting on an electric R1T or Lightning, nor concerned that the resale on the new truck might take a hit due to electrification. They simply do not believe that the utility of a BEV truck will be sufficient for their needs.
 
From Interactive Investors, one of the bigger RETAIL brokers/providers in UK. Not sure how it compares to USA/EU/RoW retail - but shows FUD only goes so far

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In Western Europe, one of the large brokers, De Giro, tracks the most traded stocks. Tesla has been more or less at the top for at least a year or so.
 

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The POTUS finally acknowledges Tesla's existence in 1/8th of a second, part of a series of snapshots of US cars from ICE's to a GM EV.
No further comment, fill in the blanks yourself (and Mods, please do show some tolerance, this is factual )



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I've been quietly chewing on how the US Gov't might respond to a Model 2 and early timing... considering those EV incentives are part of the BBB plan. As someone pointed out yesterday (sorry, like 100 pages ago) the incentives seemed to be providing a sweet spot for GM as if by design, and with little motivation to create a bigger battery than the bare minimum.

How an early reveal could alter the BBB would be wishful. But if Hybrids + rebates don't offer a lower entry price, say around $25K... Is Elon trying to tank the BBB in it's current form? Help me out, I'm not a numbers guy ;)