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I would add some further caution, that the Tesla-bot will most likely have a similar release schedule/timeline as FSD.
As a reminder: FSD had not only working prototype hardware, but also consumer-product release hardware since 2016, that is 6 years!
Yet, the software is still in restricted participation beta. I expect the Tesla-bot to be also released in hardware first with rudimentary software which then gets updated many times regularly as the NN is trained with more and more collected data from the hardware operating. Also note, that FSD had 3+ hardware revisions since that original release in addition to the many many software revisions.
Consider the timeline for military jets. It can take 5yrs just to agree that you want a new plane and draw up a specification... 5yrs for companies to bid and come up with prototypes, 10yrs to build the real thing and all its engines, weaponry, pilot training simulators, and it can basically be 20yrs from idea to implementation in the air force.

A generalised labour-replacing robot is a pretty major development for humanity. The timeline for design, debut, testing and mass production probably ought not to be likened to the next Star Wars toy that can be in stores by Christmas.
 
These kinds of posts are just silly when we have heard ABSOLUTELY NOTHING regarding actual specs or capabilities and seen zero evidence anything approaching a working prototype exists. Just pure fantasy. Feel free to project your own frothy fantasies but that’s all you are doing. There’s no meaningful discussion to have on this topic.

We need to have a higher standard for what constitutes credible investment criteria.
Investing is buying a piece of a companies **FUTURE**. By definition, you are making assumptions and projections about what that company will be able to produce in 1 year, 2 years, 5 years, 10 years, etc etc.

Watch Apple’s stock spin around every time an executive on Apple’s “Titan” car project is laid off. Look at how much investors pay attention to Apple’s VR & AR efforts. These are fantasy products. They do not exist, but they affect day to day prices of Apples share price.

Lots of companies have sometimes large SP gains or losses based on “Fantasy Projects”.

Optimus is about potential. It is a pure wildcard right now. For that matter, in my book so is Robotaxi.

Everyone puts a number in a column on their spreadsheet for what the value of FSD, Robotaxi, Optimus, Tesla Semi, etc etc are worth. Those numbers are largely guesswork. In the case of Optimus, it’s likely a very large number multiplied by a small chance of success and discounted significantly since it’s 5-10 years out.

The thing I like about Tesla is that there are things which are on the 5-10+ year horizon that can become multipliers. Not a lot of big stocks have that kind of potential. That’s not a guaranteed multiple, it’s **potential**. But that’s what investing is, buying potential. Nothing in the end is guaranteed.
 
Isn't the whole point of the bot a general purpose robot?

Factories already have single purpose robots. Have for decades. And they're specifically designed to do whatever their task is, rather than designed like a human than can do many different tasks.
At first it will be a general purpose robot capable of quickly learning multiple factory tasks that replace humans. If they can achieve that much it will be worth going into mass production to become the best-selling, most profitable robot in the world.
 
Isn't the whole point of the bot a general purpose robot?

Factories already have single purpose robots. Have for decades. And they're specifically designed to do whatever their task is, rather than designed like a human than can do many different tasks.
The point is also immensive scale, to stupendously lower per-robot-price (including developmen cost), so perhaps some of the (at least future not-yet-designed) single purpose robots do no need to be designed at all.
 
Don't forget about the risks though. If a factory bot walks into a wall at 3mph you might break at part. If a car hits a wall at 70mph someone might die. Testing and operation can be far more aggressive.

Tesla uses owner's cars to train their FSD software. Car owners pay Tesla for this privilege.

Tesla will use their own factories to train Optimus software. Hopefully the bots will eventually "earn their keep" and offset this training cost.
Definitely the public safety aspect would be gone and that would remove a lot of pressure that FSD faces, so there would be much more latitude in innovating and testing/improving
 
Very skeptical about Optimus progress. Disagree it's easier than still non-functional FSD. Road environment and rules much more constrained than the rest of physical reality. Agree that easiest Optimus application would be a well constrained environment like a Tesla factory floor, but even then...
Only way Optimus is massively more challenging a problem than FSD is if you try to make it drive.

FSD is a robot with deadly force interacting with delicate meat bags at high speed and covering vast distances.

Optimus is a robot with the strength of a 12 year old moving slowly in a confined area.

Eventually Optimus may be able to hop in a car and get your groceries, but long before that, it’ll be doing very mundane things in fairly confined environments. It will be worth a lot of money at that point. Having a worker that can stack boxes on a pallet or arrange inventory on store shelves is difficult, but not FSD difficult.
 
Isn't the whole point of the bot a general purpose robot?

Factories already have single purpose robots. Have for decades. And they're specifically designed to do whatever their task is, rather than designed like a human than can do many different tasks.

Most single purpose robots are built to perform a single specific task and really can’t be taught to do a significantly different task.

For example a box stacker robot might be a robot arm with a suction cup. If you don’t need a box stacker today, but you need a board stacker, that box stacker sits idle and you have workers stack lumber. You might buy a separate lumber stacker robot, but that brings up the second problem.

Single purpose robots are extremely good at what they do, but they are made for a single purpose and usually very expensive. If you have a mixed bag of simple jobs to do, or your workload shifts occasionally, they are not cost effective. Which brings up the third problem.

Optimus will be built in huge numbers which means it will be much more affordable for companies that could not afford a half dozen single purpose bots.

We will still have single purpose robots around, they will be much better than Optimus at specific tasks. Optimus will mostly be replacing humans.
 
Road environments are absolutely not more constrained.

Just an example. For Optimus to be a productive and efficient factory worker, there’s only an X number of machines it needs to learn to function. It then only needs to be able to learn the factory floor environment, which does not change very often. It’s working in a relatively static environment with machinery that doesn’t change often

That dynamic doesn’t even remotely compare to the random elements that FSD could and will encounter on a single drive. Not even close
I said that the factory was well constrained unlike the rest of physical reality.
 
Reasons why Optimus might be easier than FSD, at least for performing boring, repetitive jobs in a factory.

Safety
FSD controls a multi-ton machine zooming around outdoors at lethal velocity, with risk of catastrophic damage to life, limb and property if the wrong decisions are made even once. Teslabot is a ~125 lb machine with a maximum speed of 5 mph operating in a controlled indoor environment that, at least for initial applications, could have humans excluded from the vicinity. Teslabot simply requires drastically lower levels of reliability to be considered functional and be allowed to operate without human supervision.

FSD also has to work within tight constraints on processing speed for the inference engine, because at highway speeds it will travel a meter in 30 milliseconds. Traveling too far while waiting to make a decision is unacceptably risky. Teslabot doing a repetitive factory task can afford to take more clock cycles to perform more computations to reach a higher level of certainty about a classification decision before acting upon that information. If I understand correctly how the FSD computer works, this means Teslabot could use deeper or wider neural nets if needed to improve inference performance.

Simplicity
FSD has to deal with a huge variety of potential environmental conditions and problems to solve. The lighting varies, the weather varies, and there is a factorial explosion of possible combinations of lane lines, road designs, pavement materials, other road users and their behaviors, etc. FSD needs to be able to solve almost every imaginable setup to reach the required level of reliability. Nothing has more degrees of freedom than reality.

Teslabot will initially be restricted to boring, repetitive tasks, operating in a controlled factory environment with almost perfectly constant lighting conditions, sheltered from all weather. It also will generally only need to know how to do one thing, and by virtue of only doing one thing, it will also have less challenge with overfitting to the training data, because the training data will be almost perfectly representative of the data it will see during test time (i.e. doing the job).

Sensors
FSD has to compensate for factors that distort camera readings, such as vibration and rain/dust/other debris occluding the housing over the lens. A factory Teslabot would have minimal vibration and no sources of occlusion.
Agree with all the above.

But training the robot requires General AI and this is nowhere near being solved. I'm not in the field so I won't guess how long it takes to solve this problem - but it isn't something that close.

I think they will be able to train bots with code and thus make them useful to themselves inside Tesla "soon", but not something that will be useful for Joe Sixpack.
 

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Isn't the whole point of the bot a general purpose robot?

Factories already have single purpose robots. Have for decades. And they're specifically designed to do whatever their task is, rather than designed like a human than can do many different tasks.
Eventually yes as Generalized AI kicks in, based on FSD learning to start. But just as the cost of transportation drops dramatically with having to pay a driver, so do vehicle production margins rise dramatically as people are eliminated.

Ever since I first saw the live Stamping process at Fremont years ago, I wondered why humans are still unloading them. It could be that the task changes frequently depending on what's being stamped, and a high degree of inspection skills are necessary to catch forming or trimming issues real-time. For whatever reasons, they don't seem to automate that part and it's very high repetitive task - ideal for a bot.

Installing wires and cables I think would be way more advanced, but who knows. However, something basic could be made simple with just 2 arms to demo. Why do I say this? I've installed over 1,000 car stereos in my lifetime. I've been inside every dashboard up to the late 80's. Best of luck there Bot!

Point is, the demo should show a clear line to a specific task in their factory, and ideally something that's used across operations. Catching a ball, dancing, or any mock ups or fictitious setups are not the best path forward.
 
I think it was just a bit for the show, so most likely he was just reading a script someone else wrote. Though it was pretty intense in hitting the TSLAQ highpoints. It had multiple repeats of the traffic cone kid being hit.
So I watched that segment and William Shatner is just the narrator. If anything, I put it squarely on Trevor Noah, the de facto showrunner. It's particularly pitiful given that Noah also came from South Africa and he should have known better about the emerald lie, etc., for the least.
 
You need motors moving the legs correctly, bending the knees, bending the arms, making sure the robot lifts with its legs and doesn't strain the low back, grip the box with its hands, and stand again.
Unlike humans a robot can be built with a "lower back" up to the task. And have you seen what the Boston Dynamics robots can already do? The mechanics of robotic motion seem to be mostly solved, it's the ability to do tasks beyond preprogrammed routines that need to be developed.
 
Ever since I first saw the live Stamping process at Fremont years ago, I wondered why humans are still unloading them. It could be that the task changes frequently depending on what's being stamped, and a high degree of inspection skills are necessary to catch forming or trimming issues real-time. For whatever reasons, they don't seem to automate that part and it's very high repetitive task - ideal for a bot.

Elon Musk about the Model 3 ramp said:
excessive automation at Tesla was a mistake. To be precise, my mistake. Humans are underrated

I suppose Optimus could be looked at as Elon revisiting that discovery :)


I gather you did not watch the movie?

I think the fact he wants to get behind that particular robot tells you he did watch the movie.

It's being in front of it that is unwise.
 
Factory automation has plowed ahead in no small part because of the controlled conditions, but achieving the same thing in the field is much more difficult.

On the flip side, navigating a vehicle is likely far simpler than navigating a bipedal robot with digits and making it do what you want because vehicles really only move along a two-dimensional plane and in an environment that is, at least in its locality, highly structured and standardized with specific controls. You go forward/back and left/right, motion is achieved simply by spinning motors up to your desired speed, you move based on signage and colored signals.
Factories are more structured and standardized than even roads are. Everything is marked with lines, signage and in some cases visual signals. Nearly everything is rectilinear. If proper 5S housekeeping practices are being followed, then everything is clean and organized. Human behavior is the main cause of variance and disarray in factories, because we constantly need to be reminded to apply discipline about cleaning up after ourselves and putting stuff where it belongs. A production cell with no humans and only Optimi won’t have this problem.

Moving legs around to walk across flat, level, uniform concrete flooring is not very difficult with today’s technology. Boston Dynamics already has this down pat.

A bipedal robot needs to be far more versatile and dexterous just to pull off what we'd consider simple maneuvers, like walking over to a box and picking it up. You need motors moving the legs correctly, bending the knees, bending the arms, making sure the robot lifts with its legs and doesn't strain the low back, grip the box with its hands, and stand again.
For many tasks yes, but I’m sure there are some tasks simple enough to start with.

Making a humanoid robot position its joint correctly for optimal leverage in picking up a box is probably a lot easier than teaching a human to do it. I would know because I like powerlifting and have taught quite a few humans how to squat and deadlift correctly. The robot has sensors detecting joint torque and aperture angles precisely and can run a simple mechanical simulation to get the job done perfectly. A leg is just a compound lever with three fulcrums, and the math for a vertical lift is thus straightforward trigonometry that any engineer should be able to program. Humans have to go by feel, have imperfect proprioception and balance, have shaky connections from their motor cortex to their muscles, and have reaction times of 300+ milliseconds which makes real-time correction of mistakes laggy. Humans also have to break bad habits that developed as a result of living a physically easy sedentary lifestyle.

Indeed, Boston Dynamics solved bending over and picking up boxes 6 years ago.


Also, I’m pretty sure the standard for factories for lifting is 50 lbs maximum and anything at that limit is supposed to be located at waist height for optimal ergonomics, and in this power zone barely any joint flexion is needed in the first place.

Can the robot install and fasten nuts and bolts, route and terminate wires/tubes/hoses, rip plastic wrap off pallets, open boxes and break down the cardboard for recycling, or click interior trim into place? We will have to wait and see.

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And if we're to generalize this outside of controlled factories, the complexity explodes and there will be no standardized controls.

The challenge in pulling this off is monumental, the complexity is staggering
Right, but not even Tesla hyperbulls are anticipating that being achieved by Sep 30th. When asked on the Q4 2021 earning call about where Optimus will be used first, Elon said “Yeah. The first use of the Tesla Bot, Optimus, the Optimus name seems to be sticking at least internally, Optimus Subprime. Like if we can't find a use for it then we shouldn't expect that others would. So the first use of the Optimus robots would be at Tesla, kind of like moving parts around the factory or something like that.” So for now, the goal is actual usefulness for simple factory tasks. The broader goal is much harder and is a question for further in the future.
 
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