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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

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Let’s say 2023 forward EPS is actually a lot lower. Wouldn’t Elon be in deep shiznit for selling last week, since he has possession of MNPI?
No, Elon wasn't in possession of MNPI. Today's drop was in response to Tesla lowering prices to the same amount as the Federal EV rebate which is now in limbo. That announcement (Treasury Dept. delaying announcement of rules "until March") didn't come until Monday this week. Elon didn't know that when he did his last sale, nor did anyone at Tesla.

Big IF, but if EPS is affected, it's the work of the Biden Admin, through the Treasury Dept delaying these rules, putting Tesla pricing in limbo. That'll work on some prospective buyers, enough to make them delay purchase hoping for a bargain.

BTW, the law required Treasury to publish their rules by the Dec 31. Their choice do so on Mon, Dec 19 instead with 12 selling days for EVs left in the year is another flagrant abuse of executive power, aimed squarely at hobbling the market leader in EVs. The Market responded by turning a ~37.5M one-time drop in gross margin into a $32B drop in Market Cap. Nicely played, shortie (and your cronies in D.C.)

I understand how options/margin calls can cause a stock to tank, but this much without a bid? Not even a tiny bounce lol? Wtf I’ve been in this stock for 5 years and never seen something like this.
Lol, so 5 YEARS, and you never seen such? Lemme tell ya bout the Winter of '69. It was so cold, I had to nybble my popsicles... :p

Cheers!
 
Isn't that 60% gross margins and not net margins?
Sure. But are operating costs that high? Btw it's 69% if you order one pack:

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And this is before IRA which is not capped. Tesla are gonna need a lot of batteries and will be printing money with storage...
 
Yesterday I converted some stock to 2025 Jan 140 calls thinking we were at the bottom around 138.

Now we dropped to 125 and Elon on twitter spaces is implying we could get to a situation where margins are zero or negative in a bad recession.

Now I wish I just stayed in stock but if I switch back I’ll take a net hit. I also am wondering if I should just sell the calls and keep some cash instead of buying back stock in case things get worse. Or just keep the calls ?!

Any thoughts? Not advice ofcourse…
 
Good visualization of the existing situation at the end of 2021, delusional projection of the future.

Although it comes from a 2022 report, the comprehensive production data used in this infographic is for the 2021 model year.


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I don't think Elon has any kind of track record that shows him as an expert on macro economics.
Even so, ignore his views and comments at your own risk. The severity of the down turn is what is dubious. The down turn itself is in less doubt.

One thing I do want to defend Elon on is that he's right, most of the downward movement in share price is macro induced and it will take macro turning around for Tesla's stock to rise significantly again. Cars and housing are going to be hit hard when the economy slows down and interest rates go up.

If profits decrease, PE will need to rise to keep the SP relatively stable. How much of this is priced in? Hard to say. FSD can't get here soon enough.
Yesterday I converted some stock to 2025 Jan 140 calls thinking we were at the bottom around 138.

Now we dropped to 125 and Elon on twitter spaces is implying we could get to a situation where margins are zero or negative in a bad recession.

Now I wish I just stayed in stock but if I switch back I’ll take a net hit. I also am wondering if I should just sell the calls and keep some cash instead of buying back stock in case things get worse. Or just keep the calls ?!

Any thoughts? Not advice ofcourse…
If you sell to raise cash, I tend to sell more stock instead of the leaps. You get charged a premium due to slippage each time you buy or sell options. Those leaps are also 2 years away.

It may make sense to sell the calls/leaps if you are not going to hold them until expiration or you don’t think the stock will recover at least the premium plus you cost of buying the calls by 2025.
 
Good visualization of the existing situation at the end of 2021, delusional projection of the future.




12sukm0ial7a1.jpg
So what you’re saying is: You can have any EV, as long as it’s a Tesla.

And as long as Tesla is leaps and bounds on network and keeping it proprietary — It’ll stay that way unless EA has some master plan to emulate Tesla Supercharger growth pace. Last I looked they don’t and the new chargers (BTC Power) going in are failing spectacularly in colder temps.
 
Folks - it's my opinion that Tesla is undervalued at this share price, yeah, I know, shocker... however I'm not a smarty-pants accountant type person, so does any of you know what the fair-value of $TSLA should be based on the fundamentals? I'd like something solid to back-up my feelings

Thanks!

SimplyWall.St does a daily "fair-value" calculation for each equity trading in NYC. The calcuation is a 5-yr discounted cash-flow (DCF) model, but it's based on analysts' estimates of future cash flows, which we know have been Trojan'd deeply this year. Inrealisticly low, IMO.

 
Was thinking the same. Someone smarter than me please comment.

Is after hours and in public, but is this supposed to be a quiet period? Earning still about a month away.

Does him going on record about NOT selling require some sort of SEC form to be filed first.

Ugh, can this please work out well for the SP tomorrow? Would be the first time for a year or so.
Do you fill out a form due to an inaction?
 
Yeah, that's true. But now it's public so let's digest it before Wallstreet does.

Lathrop will make 40GWh/year, they sell at $550/KWh, that's $22B in revenue. At 60% margin that's $13.2B/year in profit. Then scale this to 1TWh/year in 2030, that would be $330B/year. At P/E 20, that would be $6.6T market cap.

EDIT: And this is before IRA.
The Megapack earliest order date is Q3 2024, after IRA has kicked it. (And assuming thise numbers mean what they think they mean)

BTW, the law required Treasury to publish their rules by the Dec 31. Their choice do so on Mon, Dec 19 instead with 12 selling days for EVs left in the year is another flagrant abuse of executive power, aimed squarely at hobbling the market leader in EVs. The Market responded by turning a ~37.5M one-time drop in gross margin into a $32B drop in Market Cap. Nicely played, shortie (and your cronies in D.C.)

The Dec 19th update was NOT the "proposed guidance". Based on the release, the guidance will be later than (3)(B) calls out, resulting in the old pack sized based $7,500 credit staying active until Treasury gets their act together (or 60 days after they publish, depending who you talk to).
 
No stock sales from Elon until 2025

What he actually said this afternoon on the subject:

I won't sell stock until I don't know probably two years from now. Definitely not next year under any circumstances and probably not the year thereafter.

That mean, very unlikely not in 2023, and likely not in 2024 barring more black swans. But none of us know the future, including E.

It might be differnt if he signed some sort of pledge with the BoD, but I certainly wouldn't (see above about knowing the future). Again, for every share he sold, the shortzes sold 10+ (many of which don't exist).

Focus on execution, Tesla will navigate any macro troubles far better than any other automaker, in spite of any further Administration side-swipes.

It is what it is.
 
Elon believes demand will fall in 2023 due to a heavy recession and with an increasing fed fund rate. He feels if that's the case, he will still consider high volume growth at the expense of margins, even dropping profits to break even or negative.

To be clear, Elon emphasized that no one knows whether this recession will be mild, medium, severe or just evaporate. His comment was that in a severe recession it was a judgement call on whether to sell fewer cars at higher margins or emphasize growth at low margins or even zero or a little bit negative. And his leaning was toward keeping the production high in the event of a severe recession and sell them at compelling prices even if it meant taking the hit on margins. It was very apparent to me that Elon knows demand is very sensitive to price.

He also explained multiple times how high interest rates make anything bought using credit (primarily cars and houses) effectively cost more. He emphasized that he thought TSLA was better positioned to weather a severe recession than any other carmaker due to Tesla's margins which were higher than any other carmaker. He also said he has no special insight into how much of a recession that we will have, but it's always good to be prepared for the worst. His Tesla analogy was a fleet of boats going into a storm. You could have a really good boat that could handle stormy weather really excellently, but you are still going to get tossed about.

Elon also emphasized that this is the way our economic system works - we have cycles, it's normal to have recession followed by growth. And that's why he recommends against using margin. He also said he was confident Tesla would be the most valuable company in the world and he thought it would happen in about 5 years. He also said his teams at Tesla were executing exceptionally well.

All of Elon's thoughts on demand, margins and strategies aligns with what I have been saying for months but I have been assuming a mild to moderate recession. It's true, the more severe the recession, and the higher the interest rates, the lower TSLA's margins will be. But they will likely be higher than competitors and Tesla will still sell every car they can make. In the event of economic Armageddon, all bets are off. And it was clear that Elon believes it's always wise to be prepared for the worst economic weather that can be thrown at us. I found particular comfort in that because it aligns with what I need for my investment style.

This was a very good talk with the Twitter guys and Elon (I didn't hear any women on the group chat), I think Elon came across very well and provided a lot of clarity on pretty much all the issues the media has blown out of proportion. Very comforting to people who were worried about things like Elon being distracted by Twitter, the impact of his tweets on demand, Elon selling more shares (he said he was confident he wouldn't be selling any TSLA for two years) and all related topics. IMO, this is bound to cause some strong buying tomorrow. Which I don't really think is that important in the bigger picture (and I don't think Elon thinks so either). I'm not in TSLA to make a quick buck, I'm in to increase my net worth by leaps and bounds over time. And Elon made me more certain than ever that this would be the case.
 
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Declining to say much about the 30K model. Just says Tesla has an exciting product release roadmap and that they recognize the need to put out affordable cars. Has consistently said the cost of debt is lowering demand, which again leads me to believe they will lower prices, possibly significantly, if that's what is needed to move units. As someone else said, he even said earlier they might even be willing to dip into slightly negative margins.
It was a pop up investor call with zero prep. What we got from him was more than we hear on most earnings calls. Of course he didn’t do a stealth product announcement. What did you expect?

Most likely before they drop prices a ton they will bring the Model Y SR back online. There is also the IRA rebates kicking in so it seems unlikely they will need to really drop prices hard and fast.
 
No more sales is great, but he is telegraphing his fears of a major recession quite clearly. I guess I need more SPY/NDX puts to hedge.

Elon made it clear that he doesn't have a crystal ball to predict recessions or their severity, that's why he prepares for the worst. He did not predict a major recession; I think he's actually guessing it will be moderate.

From the standpoint of a long-term individual investor, preparing for the worst means no margin or large, highly leveraged positions. Buying hedges in this situation is not investing, it's a form of gambling. I have nothing against gambling, for those who want to do it, including me if I feel like it, but it's not necessary to be a highly productive long-term investor and it actually lowers your overall returns, on average. It's a form of market timing. I'm not saying no one could make money doing it or that no one should do it, but it's a side bet that involves competing against other players because the premiums float with supply and demand. You need special insight to win overall and it requires capital that could be deployed as investments.

There are situations where it can be useful, like if you know you will need to sell in a few months, or a year. But not so much to protect long-term positions, they don't need that kind of protection.