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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

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In the long term I don't really care about margins because I see Tesla making a ton of money on software (FSD, premium connectivity, things we don't know about yet). If they can make a couple hundred bucks a month for the life of the car, that is where the real money is at IMHO. Subsidize the cost of the car with lucrative and sticky services.
 
I need some help in a debate with my son re TSLA as an investor (given his recent concerns in his inheritance, lol). He's a mathematician, so numbers help.

He thinks TSLA value is trending to zero, and not because of the FUD. Have we discussed the scenario of super low margins -> 20M annual production? And with the mission as the priority, what's the $ value of the company to an investor? To be fair, he rags on any company who doesn't pay a dividend, and is merely asking where's the return on investment. Fair question.

I'm sure there's motivation for Tesla to both make products and a profit as one protects the other, but which path satisfies the mission best? Risk of failure is diminishing with innovation and improving margins. That combination maintains the market lead.

OTOH, Tesla doesn't just make cars, and their processes and margins are best in class (yesterday anyway). People/goods need transport, and Tesla has the clear lead so they don't need to pinch any further than the competition. (You only have to run faster than the others to escape the bear and survive.)

I could use some better arguments though; his scenario seems to be making ground lately. You folks run circles around my debate skills. Maybe there's an investor definition I'm missing or ?
I did this this back-of-the-envelope calculation:
Endgame 2030
20M cars at 50K: 1T revenue.
3 billion shares, let’s say $330 revenue/share.
Pick your net margin. Let’s say 1%. (For reference: Q3 2022 was $3B on $18B revenue, i.e. 16% (edited to correct the percentage))
1 share bought today at $100 dollar will give you $3.3 in yearly recurring dividend in 2030.
That’s for me the worst outcome (apart from bankruptcy).
 
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And of course some are saying these are all protestors due to people missing the price drop.

But this says otherwise…


This is the asian culture, if they miss a discount, they feel cheated. I expect there will be some really irate clients, but it will settle down in a few days. Tesla may give them some supercharger miles or something to calm them down.

This post per my asian wife (I take no responsibility for the content). ;)
 
This is the asian culture, if they miss a discount, they feel cheated. I expect there will be some really irate clients, but it will settle down in a few days. Tesla may give them some supercharger miles or something to calm them down.

This post per my asian wife (I take no responsibility for the content). ;)
When the price of a product is raised the day after buying, do those same people return to the store and insist on paying the difference to the store?

We all know the answer to that.
 
When the price of a product is raised the day after buying, do those same people return to the store and insist on paying the difference to the store?

We all know the answer to that.

No, they pat themselves on the back and brag about it to their friends.

But if they missed the deal, they lost face, and that's no bueno in their culture. Those same friends will rub that in their face.
 
The fact that Tesla is able to reduce China prices so much suggests that the Shanghai upgrades dramatically reduced costs and Q4 could be a huge beat.

I don't think that's the correct way to look at this. I'm not saying Q4 won't be a huge beat, I'm saying the price cuts are not evidence of that.

That's because Tesla will not cut prices simply because they have reduced costs - that would lead to unacceptable order wait times. Price cuts/rises are the most reliable visibility we have into the level of demand (as opposed to indicating how much room they have to lower prices).

In the same vein, and contrary to what Elon implied about a year ago, they will not raise prices simply because the cost to produce has risen. Elon was just using the rise of raw material prices as his excuse for the price rises and to prevent analysts from using the price hikes to project unrealistic margins. The price hikes were actually in direct response to unexpected increases in demand, in order to keep demand to manageable levels.

The best (soonest) reliable visibility we have into how much pricing power (margins) Tesla has are the quarterly reports, not price cuts which, again, are in response to changes in demand.

In summary, Tesla is not a charity, and they don't cut prices simply to give their customers a better deal simply because they can, just like they don't raise prices to price gouge, they do both of these things to align demand with the ever-increasing factory outputs and factors that cause demand variations. Said another way, it's actually quite important to keep the cars flowing to customers at the same rate they are produced, without long wait times and without excessive inventory.

This is classic economic theory of supply and demand so it should be no surprise. The only time this wouldn't apply is if Tesla could not afford to cut prices further, then they would be forced to cut production instead. That is the untenable position most of Tesla's so-called competitors will find themselves in if this recession causes lower overall sales of autos. Tesla's ability to increase production during such times will be making it much worse for them. First Tesla stabbed them with a knife and now they will be twisting it back and forth. It's not malicious, it's just the way capitalism works when it's functioning properly and there is a new producer of high-quality goods that cost less to produce. This is exactly how capitalism benefits consumers, by getting rid of inefficient producers or forcing them to become more efficient.

It's better to do one big price cut than a bunch of little ones that keep consumers waiting for more price cuts. They should do a tiny price increase in about a month to make sure everyone knows the cuts are over.

The quickest way to judge whether prices will be going higher or lower is to see watch the balance between wait times and inventories. I don't think Tesla would be very likely to use changes in pricing to signal this per se, although that is exactly what a small price increase would signal. Increasing wait times would be a timelier signal that further price drops should not be anticipated while an actual raise in pricing would be stronger confirmation that Tesla's projections confirmed that they expected demand to remain strong.
 
This is the asian culture, if they miss a discount, they feel cheated. I expect there will be some really irate clients, but it will settle down in a few days. Tesla may give them some supercharger miles or something to calm them down.

This post per my asian wife (I take no responsibility for the content). ;)
There are a few threads in the various model subforums here too with people expressing similar concerns about missing out

This type of movement is what can very easily exacerbate deflation and that Elon had previously commented on. When people get a sniff of price cuts, people feel they've been slighted because they missed out on price cuts, and they think more price cuts might be coming, that can create a tendency to stop buying and waiting for the dust to settle.
 
There are a few threads in the various model subforums here too with people expressing similar concerns about missing out

This type of movement is what can very easily exacerbate deflation and that Elon had previously commented on. When people get a sniff of price cuts, people feel they've been slighted because they missed out on price cuts, and they think more price cuts might be coming, that can create a tendency to stop buying and waiting for the dust to settle.

This one is a big enough cut, I don't think anyone reasonably expects another cut anytime soon.

Certainly not with the lines in that video. That kind of advertising . . . you can't buy.
 
I did this this back-of-the-envelope calculation:
Endgame 2030
20M cars at 50K: 1T revenue.
3 billion shares, let’s say $330 revenue/share.
Pick your net margin. Let’s say 1%. (For reference: Q3 2022 was $3B on $18B revenue, i.e. 16% (edited to correct the percentage))
1 share bought today at $100 dollar will give you $3.3 in yearly recurring dividend in 2030.
That’s for me the worst outcome (apart from bankruptcy).
It seems unrealistic to sell 20M cars at $50K. Their ASP will likely fall below $50K this year at around 2M sales at best. If you are including FSD in that price, OK, but that is an assumption some people aren't willing to bake into their models just yet.
 
Not the price action I was expecting the day after a big price cut in multiple markets.

A reflection of just how beaten down the stock had to be to get here. Support in the low $100s is proving very resilient -- seems like it will be hard to break. Maybe would take a macro breakdown (recession fears / market-wide EPS misses / inflation upside surprise), or surprise miss on TSLA margins/EPS on Q4 earnings.

Next week's CPI could be a strong upward catalyst if it comes in cool.
 
This is the asian culture, if they miss a discount, they feel cheated. I expect there will be some really irate clients, but it will settle down in a few days. Tesla may give them some supercharger miles or something to calm them down.

This post per my asian wife (I take no responsibility for the content). ;)
Wife took delivery of her M3 Nov 21st. Are we upset that we could have waited 2 more weeks and gotten the $7500 and 10k supercharger miles? Of course we are. Are we going to go complain to Tesla? Nothing but a waste of breath. We get what we get and we do not get upset. I do feel cheated and I am Asian!!!
 
He thinks TSLA value is trending to zero, and not because of the FUD.
This is just...financial illiteracy TBH.
You cannot look at a simple stock chart, over a short period, and predict the future finances of the company. You actually have to get your hands dirty and spend a whole 5 minutes looking at the financials. Stock prices can only exist divorced from the financials for so long.
Tell him to look at the companies debt level. Then to look at the profit margin, then the revenue growth, then the net income growth, then the price to earnings ratio.
Thats it. Thats all you need to know. Its pretty obviously a very, very profitable company, with virtually zero debt, growing at a staggering rate and not slowing down, with a frankly ludicrous P/E ratio.

Thats without knowing that FSD or Teslabot or Tesla Energy even exists.
 
Wife took delivery of her M3 Nov 21st. Are we upset that we could have waited 2 more weeks and gotten the $7500 and 10k supercharger miles? Of course we are. Are we going to go complain to Tesla? Nothing but a waste of breath. We get what we get and we do not get upset. I do feel cheated and I am Asian!!!

Hey, we bought a used/CPO Model Y in late August. We could have gotten a new one for the same price if we waited till Dec.

Wife's not upset in the least.