Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

[bkp_duke]

The next question would be how much will EU be willing to put into their own subsidies plan to counter the US IRA and China incentives?

"Associated Press Jan 17, 2023

RUSSELS (AP) — The European Union pushed forward on Tuesday with a major clean tech industrial plan which not only should keep the continent in the vanguard of plotting a greener future but also guarantee its economic survival as it faces challenges from China and the United States.

European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen presented the outlines for her “Green Deal Industrial Plan” that will make it much easier to push through subsidies for green industries and pool EU-wide projects that are boosted with major funding as the EU pursues the goal of being climate neutral by 2050.

“We know that we have a small window to invest in clean tech and innovation to gain leadership before the fossil fuel economy becomes obsolete,” von der Leyen said.

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.
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Many EU leaders saw the U.S. act as an attempt to cut European firms out of the lucrative American market for clean energy technology like electric vehicles and excessively favors a “made-in-America” approach that discriminates against European multinationals.
"
Link to Article : EU outlines plan for clean tech future boosted by subsidies - AP

I love these. Tesla is best positioned to take advantage of the US IRA and whatever the EU comes up with in response.

 

[Drumheller]

4) as was the case in 2018-2020 we seem to have lost a number of prolific posters( @Krugerrand , @TheTalkingMule) from this thread in recent weeks-months .... not sure what happens to these folks ... why do thy disappear ? I am not on any other other social media so this is new psychology to me...

1. do they get burnt out ?
2. lose a lot of $ on options?
3. know better than the rest of us ?
4. sold their positions?
5. get upset with mods ?
6. obviously it could be something personal .... health etc.

As forum communities do, this one has changed over time. When I found this thread seven years ago, there was less activity but I could hardly read a page without having to spend time giving thought to someone's analysis of where Tesla was and where it may be going. Contrast that to today where I regularly fast scroll through multiple pages of arguments far in the weeds, stream of consciousness posts without deep reasoning, apple fanboyism, and negativity. There are still good posts here, and I think it remains the best single resource for all things related to TSLA, but the signal to noise ratio has declined.

The negativity, though, is why I think some well known posters finally left. Many people from earlier in Tesla's history are very strong believers in the mission. Of course, we'd like to make money, too, but many of us believe the mission is of utmost importance.

For the last few months of 2022, this thread saw many posts of people being very negative and hostile towards Elon, often blaming him for their financial losses. Many of those people were gamblers. Options are gambling. This thread is full of warnings from the more experienced people to be careful of options and not to use margin. However, greed is an attractive trap and many people fell for it and then turned hostile to Elon.

For those that believe, it's in scripture that, "the love of money is the root of all evil". It is often misquoted as "money is the root of all evil". The love of money is the definition of greed.

Many humans have a tough time taking personal responsibility for their mistakes. My ignore list grew significantly, including some members for which I had previously enjoyed reading their posts. However, other than present an example of what not to do, I don't believe I have much to learn from those people. I was a teacher for a while. I've been a manager for longer. I have seen that people that don't take responsibility for their actions and mistakes do not grow.

I'm here to learn about Tesla, TSLA, investing, and from those more experienced and knowledgeable than myself. I also enjoy Joe's humor.

Some people prefer not to use the ignore feature. Those people are exposed to the negativity and sometimes it becomes such that they choose to walk away. I think the cat may be one. I would like to see her return, but not at the cost of her peace.

 

[betstarship]

As forum communities do, this one has changed over time. When I found this thread seven years ago, there was less activity but I could hardly read a page without having to spend time giving thought to someone's analysis of where Tesla was and where it may be going. Contrast that to today where I regularly fast scroll through multiple pages of arguments far in the weeds, stream of consciousness posts without deep reasoning, apple fanboyism, and negativity. There are still good posts here, and I think it remains the best single resource for all things related to TSLA, but the signal to noise ratio has declined.

The negativity, though, is why I think some well known posters finally left. Many people from earlier in Tesla's history are very strong believers in the mission. Of course, we'd like to make money, too, but many of us believe the mission is of utmost importance.

For the last few months of 2022, this thread saw many posts of people being very negative and hostile towards Elon, often blaming him for their financial losses. Many of those people were gamblers. Options are gambling. This thread is full of warnings from the more experienced people to be careful of options and not to use margin. However, greed is an attractive trap and many people fell for it and then turned hostile to Elon.

For those that believe, it's in scripture that, "the love of money is the root of all evil". It is often misquoted as "money is the root of all evil". The love of money is the definition of greed.

Many humans have a tough time taking personal responsibility for their mistakes. My ignore list grew significantly, including some members for which I had previously enjoyed reading their posts. However, other than present an example of what not to do, I don't believe I have much to learn from those people. I was a teacher for a while. I've been a manager for longer. I have seen that people that don't take responsibility for their actions and mistakes do not grow.

I'm here to learn about Tesla, TSLA, investing, and from those more experienced and knowledgeable than myself. I also enjoy Joe's humor.

Some people prefer not to use the ignore feature. Those people are exposed to the negativity and sometimes it becomes such that they choose to walk away. I think the cat may be one. I would like to see her return, but not at the cost of her peace.

As a follow-up: I don't read nor post as much as I'd like due to the lack of optimism and imagination in past years from past posters. It's gotten pretty bad IMO.

 

[ZsoZso]

Up almost 5% and no emotion in this forum.

We are broken people.

My math is rusty: how many of these do we need in a row to get back to ATH ?
Probably enough so I can take a nice vacation in the mean-time without missing the excitement...

 

[StealthP3D]

I’ve never heard CNBC’s Technical Analyst Carter Worth ever say anything positive about TSLA, but he just called a near term $150 price target based on some charting ‘head and shoulders’ mumbo jumbo. While I don’t believe in TA, if enough people start buying based on his recommendation, it could become a self fulfilling prophecy. Bullish.

That's just so when it goes up to $150-$160 he can have enough credibility to say "Tesla looks over-bought now" and people will believe him.

It's all about manipulating public perceptions and nothing about the actual positioning of the company.

 

[AudubonB]

Musk-see TV: (the story of how one CEO beat the hedge funds, saved his company, and lived to tell about it)

Billion $$$ Fight Against Naked Short Selling | hosted by Roger James Hamilton (11 hrs ago)

Jeers to the shortzes!

P.S. There's some advice on how Tesla could deal with short sellers in the first 5 minutes of the video.

BONUS Reading:

TAKING A BREAK from taking a break - For those new to the investment world, take a look at the upper of the two articles Dodger has posted: "Naked Short Selling..." Second column, near the bottom: "...then-SEC Chairman William Donaldson...saying...don't meddle in this...".

I've not seen reference to Bill Donaldson for decades and decades. True to the form that Dodger and others have been preaching, Donaldson just about invented the revolving door that is Wall St===>SEC. He, along with Dan Lufkin and Bill Jenrette, formed in the early 1960s the then-lauded (by industry insiders) Donaldson, Lufkin & Jenrette; it was DLJ that created their own in-house research teams, something no other brokerage house was doing. They later were pioneers in the junk bond industry.

At any rate, to hear him quoted with those words is, for me, tantamount to a full declamation that the SEC is/was just as its detractors claim: beholden to the Gods of Wall St and in general doing anything but looking after the interests of investors.

Finally, a morsel I discovered only looking at his bio. Not only did he go to Yale, sandwiched between the years there of Bush I and Bush II - under whom he served - but, as with those Presidents, also a member of Skull & Bones. Let the conspiratorialists have fun with that.

And now, back to my sabbatical. I've got Gussie up to adding three digit sums and "multiplying" via columns & rows....as well as zipping through 1000 piece jigsaw puzzles.

 

[StealthP3D]

The negativity, though, is why I think some well known posters finally left. Many people from earlier in Tesla's history are very strong believers in the mission. Of course, we'd like to make money, too, but many of us believe the mission is of utmost importance.

For the last few months of 2022, this thread saw many posts of people being very negative and hostile towards Elon, often blaming him for their financial losses. Many of those people were gamblers. Options are gambling. This thread is full of warnings from the more experienced people to be careful of options and not to use margin. However, greed is an attractive trap and many people fell for it and then turned hostile to Elon.

Very well put! I've been appalled at all the noise and negativity directed at Elon for simply doing what any free man has a right to do and the way many Tesla bulls were so gullible to it. Just like some people want to complain that he lowered the price of cars after they bought, others want to claim he's guilty for selling shares, shares that probably would be close to worthless without his vision and hard work, in the open market. As if there's something wrong with lowering prices or selling what you own like any other free person can do.

What both of these kind of people have in common is they don't want to take responsibility for their own actions. They think they are entitled to things they are not. And the noise had become deafening and sickly sounding. I don't blame anyone who left for leaving, not everyone has the constitution to endure the kind of daily whining we were subjected to. It was not a good look for those who wanted to blame others for their own misfortune. What was most surprising to me was some of them had even been through other bear markets but still acted like they were completely unfamiliar with what happens to valuations in such an environment. Blaming Elon for exercising his human rights to expression and his legal rights to buy and sell as desired, after all he has done for shareholders and humanity alike, made me feel ashamed and disgusted to be associated with them.

 

[Cosmacelf]

Musk-see TV: (the story of how one CEO beat the hedge funds, saved his company, and lived to tell about it)

Billion $$$ Fight Against Naked Short Selling | hosted by Roger James Hamilton (11 hrs ago)

Jeers to the shortzes!

P.S. There's some advice on how Tesla could deal with short sellers in the first 5 minutes of the video.

BONUS Reading:

Gawd. I really wanted to hear what the interviewee was saying but the interviewer kept cutting him off. I can’t stand that.

 

[betstarship]

As a follow-up: I don't read nor post as much as I'd like due to the lack of optimism and imagination in past years from past posters. It's gotten pretty bad IMO.

After some more thought on this post: honestly, the forum doesn't seem to be the problem. It's pretty lively in terms of discussion and I still learn a lot. It just seems everyone's on edge in some way whether it be TSLA, Tesla, or the macro?

Whether its here or elsewhere, seems like we're beating each other up or on edge.

Just my perspective and trying to add some value to the discussion.

 

[geometro]

Very well put! I've been appalled at all the noise and negativity directed at Elon for simply doing what any free man has a right to do and the way many Tesla bulls were so gullible to it. Just like some people want to complain that he lowered the price of cars after they bought, others want to claim he's guilty for selling shares, shares that probably would be close to worthless without his vision and hard work, in the open market. As if there's something wrong with lowering prices or selling what you own like any other free person can do.

What both of these kind of people have in common is they don't want to take responsibility for their own actions. They think they are entitled to things they are not. And the noise had become deafening and sickly sounding. I don't blame anyone who left for leaving, not everyone has the constitution to endure the kind of daily whining we were subjected to. It was not a good look for those who wanted to blame others for their own misfortune. What was most surprising to me was some of them had even been through other bear markets but still acted like they were completely unfamiliar with what happens to valuations in such an environment. Blaming Elon for exercising his human rights to expression and his legal rights to buy and sell as desired, after all he has done for shareholders and humanity alike, made me feel ashamed and disgusted to be associated with them.

Well, I’ll take the other side in part of this… no one is infallible, and it used to be that Elon had very specific goals related to humanity and sustainability… very well articulated and inspiring.

Over the past year, the bird has become a bit of distraction and cluster…. It coincided with valuations (broadly) coming down. His actions were unfortunately tied to the distraction in the midst of a market adjustment (all linked together). Having a planned sale of shares would have been better than the path chosen (other execs at Tesla do this regularly). And doing it in December when auto sales were soft is (in my mind) questionable.

Been here a while and still believe in the Master Plan(s); but hard not to see some differences now vs a few years ago.

<ducks for cover>

 

[Cattledog]

My math is rusty: how many of these do we need in a row to get back to ATH ?
Probably enough so I can take a nice vacation in the mean-time without missing the excitement...

23

 

[InTheMiddle]

Just a thought - rather than back-and-forth over the part with differences of opinion, can we spend some time appreciating the large areas of agreement? Looking at Drumheller’s original post, omitting the 3rd and 4th paragraphs results in something I believe most everyone on this forum can agree with, and similarly removing the part of Geometro’s post which was responding to those paragraphs leaves the rest of their response being something that we can all likely agree with. Is it still possible to take some time and appreciate what we have in common (hopefully the majority of things) without getting hung up on the (hopefully fewer) areas of divisiveness? Perhaps focusing on areas of commonality (and not areas of divisiveness) is something the mods have tried to encourage us to do with their various nudges over the past year, and best case pivoting our focus thusly may actually reduce the negativity going forward?

As forum communities do, this one has changed over time. When I found this thread seven years ago, there was less activity but I could hardly read a page without having to spend time giving thought to someone's analysis of where Tesla was and where it may be going. Contrast that to today where I regularly fast scroll through multiple pages of arguments far in the weeds, stream of consciousness posts without deep reasoning, apple fanboyism, and negativity. There are still good posts here, and I think it remains the best single resource for all things related to TSLA, but the signal to noise ratio has declined.

The negativity, though, is why I think some well known posters finally left. Many people from earlier in Tesla's history are very strong believers in the mission. Of course, we'd like to make money, too, but many of us believe the mission is of utmost importance.

<…deleted 3rd and 4th paragraphs…>

Many humans have a tough time taking personal responsibility for their mistakes. My ignore list grew significantly, including some members for which I had previously enjoyed reading their posts. However, other than present an example of what not to do, I don't believe I have much to learn from those people. I was a teacher for a while. I've been a manager for longer. I have seen that people that don't take responsibility for their actions and mistakes do not grow.

I'm here to learn about Tesla, TSLA, investing, and from those more experienced and knowledgeable than myself. I also enjoy Joe's humor.

Some people prefer not to use the ignore feature. Those people are exposed to the negativity and sometimes it becomes such that they choose to walk away. I think the cat may be one. I would like to see her return, but not at the cost of her peace.

<…deleted the first part which was replying to the deleted parts of drulheller’s comment…>

Been here a while and still believe in the Master Plan(s); but hard not to see some differences now vs a few years ago.

<ducks for cover>

 

[StealthP3D]

Musk-see TV: (the story of how one CEO beat the hedge funds, saved his company, and lived to tell about it)

Billion $$$ Fight Against Naked Short Selling | hosted by Roger James Hamilton (11 hrs ago)

Jeers to the shortzes!

P.S. There's some advice on how Tesla could deal with short sellers in the first 5 minutes of the video.

BONUS Reading:

I don't see how the people who think synthetic shorting is some wacky conspiracy theory can live with blinders on in the face of mountains of real evidence of Wall Street fraud.

I liked the analogy the former CEO in the video used, if you bought one car and then made 100 duplicate titles for it, which you then sold to 100 different people, you would be in jail. People who have defended the honor of the markets right here on this thread need to invest the 45 minutes to watch this video and see what's going on out there under the nice pretty sheets and fees up to the fact that the markets are not as clean and sensible as they previously argued they were.

 

[StealthP3D]

Just a thought - rather than back-and-forth over the part with differences of opinion, can we spend some time appreciating the large areas of agreement? Looking at Drumheller’s original post, omitting the 3rd and 4th paragraphs results in something I believe most everyone on this forum can agree with, and similarly removing the part of Geometro’s post which was responding to those paragraphs leaves the rest of their response being something that we can all likely agree with. Is it still possible to take some time and appreciate what we have in common (hopefully the majority of things) without getting hung up on the (hopefully fewer) areas of divisiveness? Perhaps focusing on areas of commonality (and not areas of divisiveness) is something the mods have tried to encourage us to do with their various nudges over the past year, and best case pivoting our focus thusly may actually reduce the negativity going forward?

In my experience, common ground could always be found if one were willing to abandon or ignore enough important principles. But I don't believe the act of "finding common ground" is more important than the most important and fundamental principles at issue here and neither did the founding fathers of the country that drew Musk to its shores to change the world, because of the great opportunity and freedom found here. Freedoms that should not be denied an individual merely because he has taken on difficult jobs. That said, I'm sure there will always be people who are convinced they have been done wrong by the man doing more good for the world than 100 of them put together. I know I can't change all of their minds, it would be delusional to think I could.

The reason I'm not willing to abandon important principles, is because the natural progression of this kind of thinking is to suggest there is someone more suited to being CEO than Musk. That's where this kind of thinking leads. And there is no doubt in my mind that there are people out there who want Tesla to fail and who have already suggested he should no longer lead the company. The day is coming when they will fight for Musk to be replaced by a different CEO, a CEO who is more conventional, who keeps his political views to himself, who only sells shares in dark pools, who never says what he really believes, who tries to pump the share price as high as possible, who will shut down FSD and Optimus development as unattainable and who never stirs the pot.

In short, a CEO who could not hope to succeed at changing the world. That's where this kind of thinking leads because you are not going to change who Musk is and how he operates. I think that's a good thing. All I can do is invite the people who think they have been done wrong by Musk to see things from a more open-minded and less self-centered point of view. And I will agree to disagree with those who continue to think Musk owes them more of himself than he has already given. That he has robbed them somehow. Because there is no more trustworthy or capable person for this particular job that can continue to lead the company more quickly or more efficiently towards its mission. None. They don't exist. That's not worship, that's just looking at his track record and the path the company is on.

Be careful what you wish for.

 

[ElectricIAC]

In my experience, common ground could always be found if one were willing to abandon or ignore enough important principles. But I don't believe the act of "finding common ground" is more important than the most important and fundamental principles at issue here and neither did the founding fathers of the country that drew Musk to its shores to change the world, because of the great opportunity and freedom found here. Freedoms that should not be denied an individual merely because he has taken on difficult jobs. That said, I'm sure there will always be people who are convinced they have been done wrong by the man doing more good for the world than 100 of them put together. I know I can't change all of their minds, it would be delusional to think I could.

The reason I'm not willing to abandon important principles, is because the natural progression of this kind of thinking is to suggest there is someone more suited to being CEO than Musk. That's where this kind of thinking leads. And there is no doubt in my mind that there are people out there who want Tesla to fail and who have already suggested he should no longer lead the company. The day is coming when they will fight for Musk to be replaced by a different CEO, a CEO who is more conventional, who keeps his political views to himself, who only sells shares in dark pools, who never says what he really believes, who tries to pump the share price as high as possible, who will shut down FSD and Optimus development as unattainable and who never stirs the pot.

In short, a CEO who could not hope to succeed at changing the world. That's where this kind of thinking leads because you are not going to change who Musk is and how he operates. I think that's a good thing. All I can do is invite the people who think they have been done wrong by Musk to see things from a more open-minded and less self-centered point of view. And I will agree to disagree with those who continue to think Musk owes them more of himself than he has already given. That he has robbed them somehow. Because there is no more trustworthy or capable person for this particular job that can continue to lead the company more quickly or more efficiently towards its mission. None. They don't exist. That's not worship, that's just looking at his track record and the path the company is on.

Be careful what you wish for.

Well said.

 

[lascavarian]

Well said.

Really?

Seemed weak on examples and a bit strong on my way or the highway. But it is the weekend so a little flag waving and founding fathers ain’t so bad.

 

[Max Plaid]

MSN

View attachment 897984

Elon making jokes...bullish

Reminds me of this:

 

[Favguy]

My math is rusty: how many of these do we need in a row to get back to ATH ?
Probably enough so I can take a nice vacation in the mean-time without missing the excitement...

We need 23 in a row to get back to ATH, so should be at a new ATH well before the end of February. That is how this works, right?

 

[ARON44]

Tesla might be in big trouble in little China if this guy is right? China is totally collapsing this decade apparently? Is this guy credible? never heard of him till recently, I’ve listened to a few podcasts now and I’m ready to throw myself off a bridge lol, basically the good times are over and globalisation is finished? He seems to know what he’s talking about but is it a bit hyperbole? Im not sure but I hope he’s wrong?

 

[WarpedOne]

Tesla might be in big trouble in little China if this guy is right? China is totally collapsing this decade apparently? Is this guy credible? never heard of him till recently, I’ve listened to a few podcasts now and I’m ready to throw myself off a bridge lol, basically the good times are over and globalisation is finished? He seems to know what he’s talking about but is it a bit hyperbole? Im not sure but I hope he’s wrong?

This is what FUD consists of.

The correct attitude is that you don't need to outrun the bear. It is more than enough that you outrun at least some of the others.
Same with China ... Tesla China is not Tesla and Tesla is not Tesla China. Tesla China is and will be doing better than anyone else in China, no matter what exactly happens there.
And Tesla non-China will be doing better than anyone else not in China, no matter what happens there.

Why?
Because Tesla got, gets and will continue to get most of top talent.
Less clever never wins over more clever on intelligence tasks. And everything in this world is intelligence task.
In Tesla's past talent was not enough, they also needed mountains of money to get started. Now they have both. And also the third, killing feature: they are prepared to eat themselves. Tesla will stop selling cars the same day that starts to make sense.