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Economic output *is* a function of carbon emissions. There are other factors that have been reducing the carbon intensity per $ of GDP, but for the last four decades it's been steadily at about 300-500 kg of CO2 per $1 generated. See chart from the IEA

Certain patterns of thinking can trap you in the past. But there is hope! (and a clear path forward):
  1. humanity achieved a steady-state economy before the recent rapid rise in fossil fuel use
  2. current fossil fuel use is borrowing from the future (ecological damage, plus climate disruption)
  3. the crooks who are perpetrating this fraud hope to be dead before the problems become too big to ignore
  4. that chicken will come home to roost (its happening now).
The steady decrease in "carbon intensity" proves that the economy can grow w/o increasing carbon emissions, despite what the IEA would have you believe (consistently wrong forecasts wreck their credibility).

Renewables are inevitable (by definition, non-renewables will run out). The only undecided issue is if we will exit the fossil fuel age having replaced them with better, cheaper, and more abundant renewable sources of energy (maintaining our wealth and life-styles, lifting society), or will we exit the old era as impoverished fossil fools.

We need to get to a new steady state economy based on abundant renewables before the clock runs out on the mine and burn economy. That is the mindset the IEA uses it's PR department to fight against. THEY WANT OIL.
 
This is really all it should come down to. Maybe the statistics could be more sophisticated in terms of making sure it's an apples to apples comparison of Tesla vs. non-Tesla, but at the end of the day the "Tesla's FSD/Autopilot system is dangerous" hypothesis can be tested by looking at collision, injury and fatality rates.

Thus far human-supervised FSD Beta has been extremely safe compared to the US average. The trend shows there's been probably about 110 million miles by now and still there's been zero injuries or deaths as far as we know publicly. (The total number of collisions is unknown, but probably not high because news media would report on it whenever possible and they speculate about whether FSD was active when Teslas crash even before facts are available.)

This big zero compares with the US national average of 1.3 deaths per 100M miles and 80 injuries. At this sample size, zero deaths by itself isn't too impressive (or statistically significant) of an accomplishment, but zero injuries sure is, and so is the apparent absence of hundreds of collisions being reported.

All of these what-if arguments against Tesla's safety approach to FSD Beta and testing on public roads had much more weight a year or two ago. Now there's so much data that it's absurd to still talk about this as a topic of controversy. If it's dangerous, where are all the wounded and dead bodies?

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Interesting, thanks.
But what about sampling biases? If people enable FSD when they are "comfortable enough", they could chose to do so in less complex streets like highways or simpler environments... Thus national average is not a fair comparison.
 
But what about sampling biases? If people enable FSD when they are "comfortable enough", they could chose to do so in less complex streets like highways or simpler environments... Thus national average is not a fair comparison.

Accidents don't happen because of complex streets but because of drivers not paying enough attention.
You pay less attention in less complex environments, and more attention in more complex ones.

Most accidents happen in dead-simple you-just-drive-strait-ahead environments. Where one falls asleep, wanders off the lane, gets a strange urge he just must change lane this exact moment into oncoming traffic whatsoever, etc.

This excuse of "not fair comparison" is pure FUD BS.
Sorry, it is.
 
Procing of Nissan Ariya follows "Tesla-pattern" in China. Almost 9000 $ price cuts.

I just wonder, how this will effect on Ariyas demÄÄÄnd in other countries..? Those of interested will be waiting for more price cuts?

 
Sometimes you don't need to look far for weekend entertainment - This is what a self driving car looks like.
Well wasn't that a toxic dump of moaning Brits? My apologies for the whinging of my fellow countrymen. Personally I'm one Brit that can't wait to have my FSD turned on. Self driving 95% of the time on our proper roads with me intervening for the 5% of medieval width roads and multiple mini roundabouts around some of our towns will suit me just fine.
 

Bloomberg astutely pointing out how the MSM doesn’t give Tesla and Musk a fair shake.

The irony is too much for this guy!
 
Procing of Nissan Ariya follows "Tesla-pattern" in China. Almost 9000 $ price cuts.

I just wonder, how this will effect on Ariyas demÄÄÄnd in other countries..?

China has one of, if not the strictest EV quota in the world that car manufacturers must meet. I read the Nissan move as meeting that quota. Once the quota is met, prices go back up. Other countries with less regulatory pressure will not see the same pricing.

Here is some information on the quota. It mostly operates as a carbon trading market
 
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It's just a hypothesis being spout as facts, as if adas is ONLY safer if the person is paying attention vs the person is sleeping with it on. Currently the only hard data we have is that the person sleeping with autopilot on is actually SAFER than the same tired person without autopilot.…
I have only one quibble. An hypothesis is an old well tested component of the scientific method. A genuine hypothesis uses all evidence and knowledge of the scientist, then conducts specific research to prove, disprove or refine the hypothesis. Obviously that allows for reasoned judgement and manipulation by unscrupulous people.

As that applies to ADAS in general and Tesla FSD and Autopilot, the evidence is quite clear although causality is not. Part of the ambiguity is that other ADAS deployers do not offer their own data openly, assuming they even have such data.

Thus there is substantial justification for skeptical views. Nonetheless, both EAP and FSD demonstrate real, tangible safety advantages vs no ADAS. Publicly it seems we have no public data on other systems.

Anecdotally it seems other such systems, even adaptive cruise control, do have safety value. Personally, yesterday my Volvo did a panic avoidance maneuver that prevented me from hitting a motorcycle that was swerving into my car, which I only saw after the fact. Mostly that Volvo system is distinctly unimpressive, but this time it prevented an accident. Such situations are quite likely in many other non-Tesla cases, and such situations with Tesla happen too, often without a driver even knowing they happened at all.

The world needs better, much better, objective data. IMHO, a clear hypothesis that ADAS system all are reducing accident frequency and severity. Correlary: The economic value of FSD and EAP will be demonstrated without question when such data has been analyzed.

My opinion is that the positioning of things such as Robotaxi really misses the short term value is decreased accident incidence and severity. That, IMO, is worth billions by itself in reduced insurance rates for liability, collision, property damage etc. Those can and will allow for Tesla. Insurance and others to understand reduced risk apart from individual drivers, in turn allowing much improvement in driver and vehicle monitoring systems.

More details go in other threads, but here, the income recognition for FSD and increasing revenue from insurance products will combine in a virtuous cycle congruent with the decreasing warranty reserves per vehicle and reduced charges to established reserves.
 
Here’s the official press release video of the graphite offtake agreement.

Minimum of 17,500 tons/year, maximum of 35,000 tons/year. So the range is 35,000,000 lbs/year to 70,000,000 lbs/year. What do we think the lbs/car of graphite is in the battery pack, approximately? Is this an ingredient in all battery chemistries Tesla is developing/using?
 
Minimum of 17,500 tons/year, maximum of 35,000 tons/year. So the range is 35,000,000 lbs/year to 70,000,000 lbs/year. What do we think the lbs/car of graphite is in the battery pack, approximately? Is this an ingredient in all battery chemistries Tesla is developing/using?
Material is graphite for the anode, used on all chemistries.
Seems to take about 1kg per kWh
17,500 metric tons = 17.5 GWh = 220k 80 kWh packs
35k ton = a but under half a million cars per year

From battery day, Tesla is also working on a pure silicon anode
 
China has one of, if not the strictest EV quota in the world that car manufacturers must meet. I read the Nissan move as meeting that quota. Once the quota is met, prices go back up. Other countries with less regulatory pressure will not see the same pricing.

Here is some information on the quota. It mostly operates as a carbon trading market

China's policy is like ZEV but was introduced with a bigger percentage requirement to make it look better. However, the numbers were effectively exactly the same as or no better than the ZEV program because instead of max credits of 1.3/4 per vehicle it's 2/6. The cost of a credit, however, is _much_ lower.

So to compare percentages you have to add at least 50% to the ZEV percentage.

ZEV:
2023 17.0% -> 25.5%
2024 19.5% -> 29.25%
2025 22.0% -> 33%

China:
2023 18%
2024 28%
2025 38%
So it will be higher in 2025.

But there are two key differences:
- China's rule applies to the _whole_ market, while ZEV is something like 42% of the US market
- A lot of large Chinese cities make it _much_ easier and cheaper to get a registration for an EV. For example in 2023, Beijing will issue 100,000 new plates and 70% will be for NEVs, and 30% ICEVs.
 
Interesting, thanks.
But what about sampling biases? If people enable FSD when they are "comfortable enough", they could chose to do so in less complex streets like highways or simpler environments... Thus national average is not a fair comparison.
Accidents don't happen because of complex streets but because of drivers not paying enough attention.
You pay less attention in less complex environments, and more attention in more complex ones.

Most accidents happen in dead-simple you-just-drive-strait-ahead environments. Where one falls asleep, wanders off the lane, gets a strange urge he just must change lane this exact moment into oncoming traffic whatsoever, etc.

This excuse of "not fair comparison" is pure FUD BS.
Sorry, it is.
@aubreymcfato is very correct to question this comparison, as ALL statistics should be questioned to understand what they truly represent. At best, most statistical comparisons show correlation, not true causation; at worst, far too many statistical comparisons do not even show a high degree of correlation once the underlying parameters of the data sets are truly understood (or, more strictly speaking, show a correlation of each of the two things to a third thing which was not captured / examined for either data set, rather than a correlation to each other).

And, yes, @WarpedOne , you are likely also correct that most accidents are caused by insufficient attention from the driver (for any number of reasons), rather than by the road complexity itself. Counter-balance is that there are certainly accident hot-spot locations (a certain oft-hit freeway offramp barrier in California which resulted in a long-discussed-here accident comes to mind), although whether those should properly be called "complex environments" vs "poorly engineered environments" is certainly debatable.

In this case, I do not think the comparison is quite as statistically valid / interesting of a comparison as it may first seem. The types of "miles" driven each quarter with Autopilot (not FSD - see note) enabled are quite likely very different than the "miles" manually driven each quarter by Autopilot-enabled vehicles. On the good side, their report does control for vehicle, but provides no further data to demonstrate controlling for other factors. To Tesla's credit they do note:
"Please note that seasonality can affect crash rates from quarter to quarter, particularly in quarters where reduced daylight and inclement or wintry weather conditions are more common. To minimize seasonality as a variable, compare a quarter to the same quarter in prior years." (Tesla, Tesla Vehicle Safety Report | Tesla)
To make it clear to the reader to consider quarter-over-quarter comparisons, not quarter-to-quarter comparisons (although, human nature being what it is, many still make those comparisons). And there is no data whatsoever to compare Autopilot-enabled vs Autopilot-capable-but-manually-driven identical miles provided in that report. The usefulness of the data is in comparing the Autopilot enabled (dark blue) bar value's change Q-o-Q from year to year, with the Autopilot available (light blue) and US average (light gray) bar values provided as an approximation of control sets. Viewed this way, as Tesla intends, allows one to consider the increase in Autopilot safety year-over-year.

NOTE: Tesla's Vehicle Safety Report addresses Autopilot broadly, not FSD specifically...terminology matters. Tesla Vehicle Safety Report | Tesla Thus, highway miles are included in the Autopilot enabled mileage between accidents, and are likely highly overrepresented in terms of miles driven (presumably 100% of the Autopilot enabled mileage from Q3 2018 until very recently when FSD even became available to end consumers) with Autopilot enabled vs the other two metrics. This conflicts with the oft-studied reality that most accidents happen near home (likely due to lack of driver attention) which is predominantly non-highway mileage (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S092575351730783X, Close to home: An analysis of the relationship between location of residence and location of injury if you have access beyond the Abstract, similar NHTSA results, et al). This is just one clear difference between the data of each of the three color bars shown in Tesla's data.

TLDR: Yes, Teslas are very safe vehicles, and yes, Autopilot likely reduces inattentive-driver accidents, but there is no need to try to make Autopilot seem any greater than it is (which is pretty darned AMAZING, actually) by making invalid comparisons between non-similar datasets. Take the Tesla Vehicle Safety Report for exactly what Tesla presents it as (not what one might optimistically want to read it as): Data showing that real-world miles actually driven with Autopilot enabled have greater miles-between-accidents than real-world miles driven with Autopilot available but not enabled, for the pool of Tesla vehicles from which the data was collected. That is all; no more, no less. And that is still pretty great.
 
That, IMO, is worth billions by itself in reduced insurance rates for liability, collision, property damage etc.
It might be revolutionary in the insurance industry to apply savings toward a customer option allowing new car replacement more broadly. Insurers move into the used car market directly etc. Happy EV owners!
 
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