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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

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What if Tesla didn't sell any bots?

What if they are all subscription-based, with the monthly/annual rate dependent upon the task(s) they are being used for?

Jobs that result in higher wear and tear are higher rates, for instance. Multiple applications (cooks, cleans, does windows, etc.) might rate a higher cost. Plus, Tesla retains ownership and can swap them out as needed to keep the customer happy.
 
Why? Seems to me that a serious ramp of the cheapest vehicle possible is sufficient to get to 20M by 2030. And that means whatever they build in Monterrey, plus additional similar vehicles wherever they can.

Meanwhile, the mission is best served if as many other companies as possible produce as many EVs as possible, so Tesla should leave a variety of niches for others. It doesn't make much sense for them to serve any market where they sell small numbers, as they can't be as efficient as when they produce large numbers. I think they'll leave the mid-size work trucks for others.
This is a good question and, to be clear, I’m not very confident in the timeline for Tesla to get into medium-duty work trucks. It’s quite possible it might take until 15 years from now or something like that. The clean commercial vehicle subsidies in the US, with their 2032 expiration date, make for a strong financial incentive to get started in the 2020s, but maybe despite this it will make sense to focus on other segments and postpone these models. Nevertheless, I have higher confidence that Tesla will at some point in the future make a fuller lineup of work trucks in between today’s Cybertruck and the Semi.

The Master Plan includes all major modes of terrestrial transportation, because the goal is a complete transformation to sustainability. Tesla is explicitly planning to become the largest automotive manufacturer the world has ever seen, and it would be surprising to me if Tesla permanently left any major vehicle classes totally untouched. Also, to my knowledge they’ve never said the 20M/year target will be a steady-state end point. It was set just as an approximate milestone intended for 2030. Elon said on Investor Day that around ten vehicle models will be in play for the 2030 plan. With S3XY, Semi and CT we have six we know about. (Roadster will have negligible volume and it’s probably not counted in the estimate of ten models.) A van, smaller hatchback, and dedicated robotaxi all seem very likely, taking the count to nine. That leaves some room for another model or two, which might include a medium-duty work truck.

Timing aside, I anticipate at least some of the following coming in the long run:
  • Class 3 dually Cybertruck
  • Smaller Cybertruck (last we heard, this is already in the plans)
  • Class 6 or 7 day cab box truck for local deliveries
  • Class 4 customizable flatbed truck
The Semi isn’t needed to reach 20M vehicles per year, yet Tesla has already started to sell it, so evidently they’re not targeting solely the highest-volume segments. Some of the reasons Tesla gave for this decision are that diesel semi trucks consume a lot of fuel per vehicle and contribute significantly to human health and environmental problems. Diesel engines tend to be worse than gas engines in terms of noise and hazardous pollutants likes particulates, nitrous oxides, and aromatic hydrocarbons. The same problems apply, albeit slightly less, to mid-market trucks. So, the same logic for Tesla entering this segment might apply as well. Work trucks can be even worse for breathing hazards despite being smaller than semis, because they are commonly parked on job sites with their engines left running, spewing toxic fumes around all the nearby workers.

Tesla’s vehicle engineering advantages make a bigger difference for trucks than for passenger vehicles, mainly because of the intense power demand for trucks and because of the buyers caring more about factors such as cost, reliability and longevity. Competitive work trucks generally will require:
  • Batteries with high energy density
  • High-power, low-cost charging
  • Powertrain efficiency
  • Structure that can bear high loads for hauling, towing, and off-road driving
The energy density requirement is why Cybertruck and Semi will be using Tesla’s 4680s with nickel cathodes instead of cheaper nickel-manganese or iron-phosphate cathodes. Nobody except Tesla currently has a viable technical path for going full-nickel with zero cobalt. Also, the technology from Battery Day should lead to Tesla’s nickel batteries lasting longer than comparable batteries from competitors. In particular, better thermal control and dry electrode deposition should help a lot with longevity. Tesla’s V4 chargers and battery-to-wheel powertrain efficiency are industry-leading. For structural strength, the gigacastings, structural battery pack, and Cybertruck exoskeleton design deliver best-in-class performance by a wide margin. This translates to more strength with the same mass or an opportunity to reduce mass and save money while increasing energy efficiency. These same advantages would extend to mid-market work trucks and enable Tesla to have a big lead on total cost of ownership and other characteristics professional truck buyers care about.

This is why I’m thinking Tesla will produce these trucks in the long run.
 
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Closed all my margin and switched to TSLL instead of being on margin. Volatility of TSLL is so high that my brokerage will not allow me to buy any more TSLL then my account value although I can go on margin buying Tesla, or any other stock or financial instrument other than TSLL. I am risk seeking, but not stupid, so I’m not about to go on any margin in this current market environment after the failure of Silicon Valley Bank all bets are off and anything can happen in the short term long-term it is really good because federal reserve is not about to raise rates anymore in my opinion or maybe 25 basis points max tops, so within a few months, we are likely to be much higher but in the very short term, it is stupid to be borrowing money in my opinion when things could go south very fast . Tesla very well may have bottomed on Friday or not.
In my opinion, when somebody is on leverage, the last thing you want to do is go to sleep
It’s better to be proactive and wrong, rather than do nothing, and go down with the ship
I would never move out of Tesla at this point but in my opinion, it could go $1000 a share within a year or two so TSLL seems to be a better bet than margin right now
 
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This is a good question and, to be clear, I’m not very confident in the timeline for Tesla to get into medium-duty work trucks. It’s quite possible it might take until 15 years from now or something like that. The clean commercial vehicle subsidies in the US, with their 2032 expiration date, make for a strong financial incentive to get started in the 2020s, but maybe despite this it will make sense to focus on other segments and postpone these models. Nevertheless, I have higher confidence that Tesla will at some point in the future make a fuller lineup of work trucks in between today’s Cybertruck and the Semi.

The Master Plan includes all major modes of terrestrial transportation, because the goal is a complete transformation to sustainability. Tesla is explicitly planning to become the largest automotive manufacturer the world has ever seen, and it would be surprising to me if Tesla permanently left any major vehicle classes totally untouched. Also, to my knowledge they’ve never said the 20M/year target will be a steady-state end point. It was set just as an approximate milestone intended for 2030. Elon said on Investor Day that around ten vehicle models will be in play for the 2030 plan. With S3XY, Semi and CT we have six we know about. (Roadster will have negligible volume and it’s probably not counted in the estimate of ten models.) A van, smaller hatchback, and dedicated robotaxi all seem very likely, taking the count to nine. That leaves some room for another model or two, which might include a medium-duty work truck.

Timing aside, I anticipate at least some of the following coming in the long run:
  • Class 3 dually Cybertruck
  • Smaller Cybertruck (last we heard, this is already in the plans)
  • Class 6 or 7 day cab box truck for local deliveries
  • Class 4 customizable flatbed truck
The Semi isn’t needed to reach 20M vehicles per year, yet Tesla has already started to sell it, so evidently they’re not targeting solely the highest-volume segments. Some of the reasons Tesla gave for this decision are that diesel semi trucks consume a lot of fuel per vehicle and contribute significantly to human health and environmental problems. Diesel engines tend to be worse than gas engines in terms of noise and hazardous pollutants likes particulates, nitrous oxides, and aromatic hydrocarbons. The same problems apply, albeit slightly less, to mid-market trucks. So, the same logic for Tesla entering this segment might apply as well. Work trucks can be even worse for breathing hazards despite being smaller than semis, because they are commonly parked on job sites with their engines left running, spewing toxic fumes around all the nearby workers.

Tesla’s vehicle engineering advantages make a bigger difference for trucks than for passenger vehicles, mainly because of the intense power demand for trucks and because of the buyers caring more about factors such as cost, reliability and longevity. Competitive work trucks generally will require:
  • Batteries with high energy density
  • High-power, low-cost charging
  • Powertrain efficiency
  • Structure that can bear high loads for hauling, towing, and off-road driving
The energy density requirement is why Cybertruck and Semi will be using Tesla’s 4680s with nickel cathodes instead of cheaper nickel-manganese or iron-phosphate cathodes. Nobody except Tesla currently has a viable technical path for going full-nickel with zero cobalt. Also, the technology from Battery Day should lead to Tesla’s nickel batteries lasting longer than comparable batteries from competitors. In particular, better thermal control and dry electrode deposition should help a lot with longevity. Tesla’s V4 chargers and battery-to-wheel powertrain efficiency are industry-leading. For structural strength, the gigacastings, structural battery pack, and Cybertruck exoskeleton design deliver best-in-class performance by a wide margin. This translates to more strength with the same mass or an opportunity to reduce mass and save money while increasing energy efficiency. These same advantages would extend to mid-market work trucks and enable Tesla to have a big lead on total cost of ownership and other characteristics professional truck buyers care about.

This is why I’m thinking Tesla will produce these trucks in the long run.
No argument that they might do work trucks eventually for various reasons. But what you wrote was "However, the official plan is still for 20M vehicles annual run rate by 2030, and I would be surprised if this plan does not include a couple mid-sized work trucks." I still see no real reason for thinking that the 2030 goal either requires or even suggests the production of such vehicles.

But, of course, we won't know until we know. If I'm right, not until 2030. If I'm wrong, any time is possible.
 
Club Tesla Quebec, of which I am a member, has a booth at this week's Quebec International Auto Show (approx 70000 visitors), with three brand new cars on the floor (EXY, no floor space for the S) kindly loaned to us by the local Tesla service center. Not an official presence as Tesla does not do car shows, but a close proxy. I just concluded two days there sharing with others my experience as a Model Y owner and talked to several hundred people, a quarter of which seemingly there to make a purchase decision on any electric car, or walking in just curious and walking out totally decided.

A few observations about that quarter of those people that I talked to:

- No one ever mentioned Elon (could not care less, in other words).
- Many owners of recently purchased EV's but frustrated about a laundry list of shortcomings (2022 Niro, ID4, etc, but no Mach E).
- Lots of plug-in hybrid owners "it gave us the taste"
- Several ID4 deposit holders, "keep hearing about issues"
- Basically NO ONE is aware that Tesla does not have any waitlist. The question always starts with "how many months?" - that always comes as a big surprise and is a *HUGE* deal.
- Most were flabbergasted by the value proposition of the Model Y. "How much $$$ you're saying? Really that low?" "that much range, wow!" "four wheel drive and it also comes with all this (premium sound system, autopilot, heated seats, ...) as standard, are you serious?"
- They all absolutely love the seats
- Explaining how long distance travel works with a Tesla where the car takes care of all the Supercharging routing and planning automatically as function of battery charge is one of those 'aha!' moment.
- Fastest "sale" - about 30 seconds - was to a guy who slept in his EV last summer and I started sharing my own experience with camp mode in North Carolina last December. He did talk to others on the floor before me but this was the last straw.
- Dozens and dozens of test drives at the local service center booked
 
No argument that they might do work trucks eventually for various reasons. But what you wrote was "However, the official plan is still for 20M vehicles annual run rate by 2030, and I would be surprised if this plan does not include a couple mid-sized work trucks." I still see no real reason for thinking that the 2030 goal either requires or even suggests the production of such vehicles.

But, of course, we won't know until we know. If I'm right, not until 2030. If I'm wrong, any time is possible.
Yeah actually that makes sense. After this discussion and writing it out, it looks less clear to me that this is coming by 2030. Other than the subsidies it might make more sense for Tesla to wait. Still something long-term investors ought to look at.
 
Club Tesla Quebec, of which I am a member, has a booth at this week's Quebec International Auto Show (approx 70000 visitors), with three brand new cars on the floor (EXY, no floor space for the S) kindly loaned to us by the local Tesla service center. Not an official presence as Tesla does not do car shows, but a close proxy. I just concluded two days there sharing with others my experience as a Model Y owner and talked to several hundred people, a quarter of which seemingly there to make a purchase decision on any electric car, or walking in just curious and walking out totally decided.

A few observations about that quarter of those people that I talked to:

- No one ever mentioned Elon (could not care less, in other words).
- Many owners of recently purchased EV's but frustrated about a laundry list of shortcomings (2022 Niro, ID4, etc, but no Mach E).
- Lots of plug-in hybrid owners "it gave us the taste"
- Several ID4 deposit holders, "keep hearing about issues"
- Basically NO ONE is aware that Tesla does not have any waitlist. The question always starts with "how many months?" - that always comes as a big surprise and is a *HUGE* deal.
- Most were flabbergasted by the value proposition of the Model Y. "How much $$$ you're saying? Really that low?" "that much range, wow!" "four wheel drive and it also comes with all this (premium sound system, autopilot, heated seats, ...) as standard, are you serious?"
- They all absolutely love the seats
- Explaining how long distance travel works with a Tesla where the car takes care of all the Supercharging routing and planning automatically as function of battery charge is one of those 'aha!' moment.
- Fastest "sale" - about 30 seconds - was to a guy who slept in his EV last summer and I started sharing my own experience with camp mode in North Carolina last December. He did talk to others on the floor before me but this was the last straw.
- Dozens and dozens of test drives at the local service center booked
With stories like this, one does wonder if Tesla is going to do more soft marketing like this in the future now that they’ve more or less caught up on their backlog.
 
Yeah actually that makes sense. After this discussion and writing it out, it looks less clear to me that this is coming by 2030. Other than the subsidies it might make more sense for Tesla to wait. Still something long-term investors ought to look at.
No way this is realistic in 2030, if ever. 10 models, thats an average sales of 2 million per model pr year. What would sales per model look like?
 
With stories like this, one does wonder if Tesla is going to do more soft marketing like this in the future now that they’ve more or less caught up on their backlog.

Good point. I’d rather Tesla spent a few million on some educational marketing than slashed prices next time there’s an inventory buildup.

People in certain areas just need to hear of the range, the charging network, the omission of a dealership, and the price to be convinced of Tesla’s superiority.

But then whether Tesla will be able to handle the surge in demand is a big question mark.
 
If I had to guess: Tesla will obviously create a self-contained payment system decoupled from global payment systems for Tesla Network, and will integrate all their other customer facing order systems into it as well.

I.e. Tesla intends to become a global bank as well.

VOICES FROM THE PAST.

Well, this Global Banking idea might work (maybe) if they just had access to an independant link to the stars, and ties to a large, privately-owned media communications company... :D

Cheers to the Longs!
 
I was surprised that I paid $17 to charge 40 kWh yesterday in Aberdeen, WA Supercharger. That was .425 per kWh! I have not been using supercharger for a year (or so), but this seems pretty high. Has Tesla been raising the price?
Between 48 cents and 52 cents (CAD) per kWh for me when using Supercharger juice in Ontario (however, it is sold by the minute). Definitely much more expensive than two years ago.
 
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No way this is realistic in 2030, if ever. 10 models, thats an average sales of 2 million per model pr year. What would sales per model look like?
IMO the compact car / RoboTaxi has a fair chunk of the sales.

The split Tesla presented at Investor Day seems right.

I agree with Elon, some car models are classics, VW beetle and vs, E-type jag, porsche 911. But a lot of car models are boring rubbish, with rubbish specs which match their rubbish looks.

Making too many models just adds expense and dilutes quality.
 
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Ok...
This will be about The Public's Perception of Tesla by the people attending the Biggest Koi Show in the USA outside of California. The Central Florida Koi Show in Orlando this weekend.
I could not handle owning a Tesla at this time. These are people with money. Alot of Money. Not all of em but the majority have a fat wad of expendable income... And they are clueless.
"Charges for over an hour"
"My buddy has one and it takes a couple of more days to get to NYC but he likes it."
"Huge amount of water to put out all the battery fires."
"No chargers"
"Still pollutes because it gets its energy from a coal-burning plant."
"Takes all day to charge"
But my most frustrating one, "What is a cybertruck?"

Now at first glance that was a pretty negative experience for me. But the silver lining is that even the target group has not a clue about Teslas yet....
 
Because the space, auto, insurance, and electrical industries are light on regulation?

You confuse what Musk says with what he is capable of dealing with. Or at least capable of relegating. Musk is already hip deep in lots of regulation heavy industries. He will complain about it a bunch, but it’s part of doing business.
No, I don’t think I do. I’m in banking, but have always been on the “let’s get *sugar* done” side of thIngs but that is simply not possible anymore. Case in point, SVB. in the auto industry, no one says “your steering wheel fell off, you are shut down” or even, “Lucid, there is no way you can be profitable, we are selling you to Ford.” People and regulators just don’t want to tolerate losing their savings overnight. I get it, but to try to work and be innovative in that environment is near impossible.
 
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