Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

[Singuy]

So after lawyer fees (my guess - $800k), he's left with $2.4M. This is taxable income because it is not a physical injury settlement ~ 32% for federal, don't know about state. He is probably walking away with $1.3M give or take. I guess on the bright side, not too shabby for 'working' at the tesla factory for only 9 months

It is absolutely absurd to have such high monetary payment due to racism unless it caused physical injury. I would love for someone at work to do the slanty eyes at me and say ching ching chung if I know there's a few million waiting for that kind of behavior.

The appropriate award should be all lawyers fees paid by Tesla, immediate termination of all party involved, and paid at the hourly rate the worker was in court.

 

[M|S|M MYP]

I would love for someone at work to do the slanty eyes at me and say ching ching chung.

This just summed up my junior high school years back in the mid 80's.

 

[MikeC]

It is absolutely absurd to have such high monetary payment due to racism unless it caused physical injury. I would love for someone at work to do the slanty eyes at me and say ching ching chung if I know there's a few million waiting for that kind of behavior.

The appropriate award should be all lawyers fees paid by Tesla, immediate termination of all party involved, and paid at the hourly rate the worker was in court.

The first settlement was in 2021, shortly after the George Floyd killing and BLM protests. The plaintiff couldn’t have picked a better time for the lawsuit, but he blew it by getting greedy.

 

[StarFoxisDown!]

This is what I've been saying for a year now, I think we'll be range bound under $300 in 2023. Between macro pressures, a weak economy, and WS keeping the stock down on purpose, plus a lack of new buyer volume to regain control of the stock over MM's, I just don't see how TSLA breaks out on it's own.

If our PE stays around 50 and TSLA margins compress a bit this year due to the price cuts, then I really think we'll end the year under $300 even given 1.8+ million cars delivered. Which sounds kind of crazy, but the financial napkin math is sound with net income of around $20 billion. If our PE walks up some then TSLA could go well over $300 of course.

Tesla Energy is the true wildcard. If Megapack sales go into extreme overdrive in 2023 it could really push earnings higher than anyone on WS expects. Q1 on the 19th should be a decent indicator whether or not this possibility has any merit.

Margins would have to compress considerably for this scenario to be the case. You forget that while Q1 EPS will be a tough comp, Q2, Q3, and Q4 will be very favorable comps in terms of Tesla’s TTM PE. At 194 Tesla is already at a PE of 50. Q2 and Q3 were especially weak EPS quarters in 2022. For Tesla to not beat those EPS numbers considerably while doing 1.8 million deliveries, would mean margins would have collapsed

 

[Mike Smith]

Nio has decided to not be affected by Tesla's price cuts. I don't think they quite understand how this works.

Nio Won’t Join China Auto Price War; Tesla Lacks Pricing Power in Country, Li Bin Says

www.yicaiglobal.com

 

[Electroman]

So after lawyer fees (my guess - $800k), he's left with $2.4M. This is taxable income because it is not a physical injury settlement ~ 32% for federal, don't know about state. He is probably walking away with $1.3M give or take. I guess on the bright side, not too shabby for 'working' at the tesla factory for only 9 months

Yes not too shabby, but he could have walked with much much more had he not gone for a retrial? is that how this ended?

 

[bkp_duke]

So if the plaintiff was originally awarded $7M, but was greedy and wanted $160M, and now after the retrial that was reduced to $3.2M.

Before the lawyers get theirs. This guy MIGHT walk away with 1/2th of the award.

 

[insaneoctane]

Nio has decided to not be affected by Tesla's price cuts. I don't think they quite understand how this works.

Nio Won’t Join China Auto Price War; Tesla Lacks Pricing Power in Country, Li Bin Says

www.yicaiglobal.com

I kind of expected cluelessness from legacy automotive, but not one of the new start ups. Getting the cash inferno under control is the only way to make it through the scale up to the other side. Ignoring where pricing/market goes will collapse demand and is one of the million and one ways a new automobile company dies.

 

[Knightshade]

It is absolutely absurd to have such high monetary payment due to racism unless it caused physical injury. I would love for someone at work to do the slanty eyes at me and say ching ching chung if I know there's a few million waiting for that kind of behavior.

The appropriate award should be all lawyers fees paid by Tesla, immediate termination of all party involved, and paid at the hourly rate the worker was in court.

If you only paid a tiny token amount for your company violating labor laws nobody would bother ever obeying labor laws- it'd be cheaper not to.

This is the whole reason the legal concept of punitive damages exists- to discourage bad behavior by imposing a substantial cost for that behavior.


Note NONE of this is about the specific merits of this case-I think there's a fair bit to suggest the merits were...questionable...here... but instead it's about why setting awards as you suggest would be a horrible idea setting labor conditions nearly back to the gilded age.

 

[Beltsbear]

It is absolutely absurd to have such high monetary payment due to racism unless it caused physical injury. I would love for someone at work to do the slanty eyes at me and say ching ching chung if I know there's a few million waiting for that kind of behavior.

The appropriate award should be all lawyers fees paid by Tesla, immediate termination of all party involved, and paid at the hourly rate the worker was in court.

Well…. There should be an actual penalty. But it just should be five or six digits long, not seven, eight or nine.

 

[Singuy]

If you only paid a tiny token amount for your company violating labor laws nobody would bother ever obeying labor laws- it'd be cheaper not to.

This is the whole reason the legal concept of punitive damages exists- to discourage bad behavior by imposing a substantial cost for that behavior.


Note NONE of this is about the specific merits of this case-I think there's a fair bit to suggest the merits were...questionable...here... but instead it's about why setting awards as you suggest would be a horrible idea setting labor conditions nearly back to the gilded age.

3M is a drop in the bucket. There're a whole lot of damage done to Tesla PR wise for having this lawsuit than the 3M they need to pay. So the fact that companies never wish to be sued for these kind of labor laws is good enough incentive to obey them.

 

[Singuy]

Well…. There should be an actual penalty. But it just should be five or six digits long, not seven, eight or nine.

The penalty is Tesla (or insert any company) being dragged through the mud with negative headlines which may affect sales or brand strength.

 

[Featsbeyond50]

Margins would have to compress considerably for this scenario to be the case. You forget that while Q1 EPS will be a tough comp, Q2, Q3, and Q4 will be very favorable comps in terms of Tesla’s TTM PE. At 194 Tesla is already at a PE of 50. Q2 and Q3 were especially weak EPS quarters in 2022. For Tesla to not beat those EPS numbers considerably while doing 1.8 million deliveries, would mean margins would have collapsed

We could have a PE of 30 by year end and still have a share price under 200. If you don't understand this, you're not living in reality.

 

[Knightshade]

You:

It is absolutely absurd to have such high monetary payment

But somehow also you...

3M is a drop in the bucket.

So is it an absurd amount- or a drop in the bucket?

But also yes- that's why the original punitive award was so high. And even the judges reduced amount in that case was much higher than this one. So that it'd be enough to matter.

(the foolishness of the guy asking for another trial being a whole separate matter)

So the fact that companies never wish to be sued for these kind of labor laws is good enough incentive to obey them.

The fact they keep getting sued for them, across LOTS of big companies to whom 3M is a drop in the bucket as you say, suggests otherwise.

 

[Singuy]

You:



But somehow also you...





So is it an absurd amount- or a drop in the bucket?

But also yes- that's why the original punitive award was so high. And even the judges reduced amount in that case was much higher than this one. So that it'd be enough to matter.

(the foolishness of the guy asking for another trial being a whole separate matter)





The fact they keep getting sued for them, across LOTS of big companies to whom 3M is a drop in the bucket as you say, suggests otherwise.

3M is a drop in the bucket for the company but it's an absurd amount for the individual.

3M as a punishment for the company is useless. However if you feel that companies need to have monetary punishment, have this amount be paid to the courts as a fine.

3M as an award for the individual can potentially incentivizes false allegations/or commits fraud.

Look at the FL insurance fraud scams. Once insurance companies are willing to pay for your roof after you lawyer up for free, everyone lawyered up waiting for new roofs even though 90% of them were not caused by wind damage but just old.

 

[StarFoxisDown!]

We could have a PE of 30 by year end and still have a share price under 200. If you don't understand this, you're not living in reality.

Sure…..if margins collapse. Not sure what you’re responding to in my post.

If Tesla does 1.8-1.9 million deliveries in 2023 and TSLA’s PE is trading in the same range as it has for the past 3-4 months, 30-50, and the stock is below 300, that means margins have considerably decline if not collapsed. That’s the entire point of my post.

 

[Knightshade]

3M is a drop in the bucket for the company but it's an absurd amount for the individual.

3M as a punishment for the company is useless.

So you're saying the award should've been larger.

A few posts after saying it was too big.

The $ has to be enough to discourage future bad behavior...and it has to go to someone. The harmed party is the only one that makes much sense. It's not SUPPOSED to be proportional to the harm. That is literally the point of punitive damages

3M as an award for the individual can potentially incentivizes false allegations/or commits fraud.

Not against companies willing to defend themselves in court. You'd need some sort of actual case.

You have to have a winnable case for a lawyer to take something like this on contingency in the first place.

The roof examples you give are tiny amounts NOT worth fighting in court and had nothing to do with the "bad PR" issue you gave as the previous reason companies want to avoid going to court....

However if you feel that companies need to have monetary punishment, have this amount be paid to the courts as a fine.

That would create a massive, and massively negative, moral hazard. Far worse than the one you suggested was a concern for you in the paragraph about false allegations.

If that's not obvious I'd strongly encourage you to take some time to think about this before continuing the discussion (and probably it ought to go out of this thread at this point either way- feel free to drop it into PMs as I'm sure 99% of this thread could not care less about the topic)

 

[lafrisbee]

How about; mimicking the beauty of nature, the earth, and its crystalline/mineral structures?

View attachment 924559

I looked at the photo before reading either of these posts. And the photo made me think of The Borg. So i sorta agree with the post about the lack of art in the cybertruck's inspiration.
But you knooooow?The lack of art within something might be art...So it was inspired by art that is backboned by the complete lack of art but there still be something.
Ant thought

 

[Singuy]

I wonder what delivery numbers would satisfy wallstreet? I checked Toyota production/deliveries in the 1970s when they were at a 2M run rate. Pretty much identical logistic wise to Tesla, delivery numbers being 95% of production numbers. I think when scale becomes half a million a quarter, this is the best a company can do unless they spend crazy money expediate shipments or ship cars in a way that's not optimized.

GM just reported 600k deliveries with over 400k inventory! And here Tesla getting punished for what, 80k cars in inventory?

Tesla shares drop after deliveries report raises investor concern that more price cuts are coming

As Tesla ramps up production in new facilities, some investors worry that reaching the company's ambitious delivery targets will require more price cuts.

www.cnbc.com

 

[M|S|M MYP]

Yes not too shabby, but he could have walked with much much more had he not gone for a retrial? is that how this ended?

This is how it has ended for now, however, when Q2 P&D and earnings are around the corner, i am sure there will be another 'employee' with a similar lawsuit that will be filed and make CNBS headlines.