Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

[JusRelax]

I haven't watched it yet, but Brighter With Herbert youtube channel has an interview with the very first TSLA bull on Wall Street, some of which you may know (and adore) - Andrea James:

 

[Thumper]

I just returned from a multi thousand mile road trip. Went from v11.4.2 to v11.4.3 a couple of days ago. I drive a 22 MS long range, the best road car ever made. The wipers work fine for me.
FSD is a different story. Phantom braking, phantom lane change and gratuitous nav instructions are a real problem. FSD would go for long stretches and then attempt to slow, most often not strong braking but needs to be overridden. Even when not exactly braking, it is noticeable that the car stops applying power for a moment. These thing happen sometimes in traffic but also in eastern Montana and western North Dakota on long straight stretches and zero discernible traffic ahead or behind. Once on a clear 2 lane with no traffic near, I let FSD do its phantom braking worst. It slowed from 60 to 17 mph. When it works right, it is a true driving assist. As it is, one must keep a foot over the accelerator in case of braking, and keep quite a bit of tension on the steering even on straight roads. The end result is that until they get this sorted, using FSD is more work and more stressful than just plain old cruise control. Having had this thought on the trip, I tried just using EAP and I still got phantom lane change and phantom braking but maybe not as often. Additionally, on several occasions Nav gave verbal instructions to exit onto exits that were not present. The car did not move or slow for the phantom exits but it was weird.
As to the argument that we must accept the status quo and shut up, or buy a different car, I do not subscribe to that view for cars or politics. It is possible to love something and yet advocate for improvement.

 

[navguy12]

I have two Tesla's one I have had for 5 years I have had phantom breaking two times, total.

Part of this problem could be that people love to complain but don't say anything when they're happy....

I am happy with my teslas

Come drive on HWY 7 between Carlton Place (ON) and Peterborough (ON) using any of the available Tesla ADAS.

Or, the section of 401 between Mississauga (ON) and Milton (ON).

 

[Unpilot]

Your tone makes me think you’re looking at the situation incorrectly.

Those who care the most about this planet wish for gasoline forever. That is, the way - the only way- to make that happens is to save, not consume, it.

Maybe if it said Crude Oil forever.... But Gasoline has been extracted, shipped and then refined and shipped again.

No to Gasoline forever for me!

 

[KBF]

All posts about how Birdseye, ultrasonic, etc. are unecessary....they are all just sadly an effort at justifying Tesla's inadequacy. If people are such awesome drivers so as not to need the extras, we'll no one makes you use them. Having additional aides to help all drivers, regardless of skills, makes for the safest cars. Many other car brands have created valuable features to help in this area. Don't justify Tesla's substandard bells-and-whistles because it demonstrates your subjectivity.

That's one way of looking at it. Alternatively, those posts could be reminders about what is actually the most valuable in cars, what is essential, and what are merely bells and whistles. There definitely is a subjective element, and these posts show that different people have chosen different narratives.

Whining about it is anyone's right, but it also demonstrates their subjectivity, too. I know which mindset I will choose - others are free to get worked up about bells and whistles. I also trust that the minor windshield wiper issue will get resolved over time, because I've seen Tesla resolve other issues.

I'd rather put extra valuation weight on overall engineering, drivetrain, battery tech, safety (structural and life threatening safety takes precedence over fender benders cause by my impatience/lack of skill), charging and road trip ability, etc.

Edit: I wonder, too, if Tesla's totally different approach to fixes (OTA) is creating a level of anxiety as we adjust to the new model. The old approach is "you get what you get - you want improvements, buy the next model year". It is helpful for setting expectations, and it's easier to choose. Tesla's approach introduces uncertainty, and it's easy to misunderstand the difference between a projection/estimate and a promise, especially when it comes to timelines. It's a paridigm change and certain personalities will naturally gravitate towards one or the other. Neither approach is perfect, and each has advantages. I think Tesla has made mistakes along the way, but based on their history I also expect them to continue to learn from those mistakes, but it will be a bit messy in the meantime. I'm not trying to invalidate anyone's feelings - I'm trying to introduce multiple ways of thinking about these issues. In the end, I'd love a 'perfect car', but I've never seen one in my decades of car ownership. But comparing my new Model Y to every other car I've owned... It's my favourite in overall value and experience. (but my Signature Model S will always be my sentimental/aesthetic fav, and my first ride on my old Zero electric motorcycle at night with no helmet may be my favourite all-time driving experience - it was like flying)

 

[bkp_duke]

Yup well said. Also its just an incredible own-goal by Tesla in terms of branding. Regardless of how I personally feel as a customer, I despair at Tesla handing such an obvious gift to competitors. My neighbour recently bought an MG EV costing about half what my model Y cost. He cares not a bit about 0-60 times, or playing games and streaming netflix in his car. His *cheap* EV has a rain sensor, parking sensors and a birds eye view.

I'd love Tesla to spend less time bragging about nurburing lap-times and more time implementing the basic functionality that people expect to work. Anybody trying to use Tesla Vision to park in a tight space will tell you that its embarrasingly bad.
Tesla have to sell cars to the average Joe now, not just to people who take a lambo to the track.

To all those lamenting 360/Birdseyeview - this was patented by Nissan if memory serves me. And it is still an active patent.

Tesla's cameras and software could aggregate and produce 360 with no problems, but turning that on across the fleet would be a big fat check to Nissan for royalties. I highly suspect this is why Tesla has not done this, but like with LFP, the instant that patent expires we might see a software upgrade that enables it.

 

[BrownOuttaSpec]

I have a 2022 model Y with FSD purchased. It cannot even autopark, 8 months after purchase. My 2015 model S could. How is this 4D chess by elon? The product is getting worse.

I wouldn't say the product overall is getting worse but that there are pro's and con's to every change made. Citing the 2 models you listed below are a few examples:

Thing's you I bet wish you had on your 2015 Model S:
Faster supercharging (Battery size and chemistry improvements)
Heat Pump
MCUX (AMD Ryzen)
HEPA Filter (Bio-defense Mode)
Improved Airbag vehicle safety

Items since removed potentially for cost cutting measures:
Dedicated rain wiper sensor
Passenger lumbar support
Sunroof
Radar
Ultrasonic sensors (USS)
Rear chrome diffuser (I think this looks cool, but not really a big deal)

While it does seem like the "product is getting worse" it also gets better on a fundamental level (range and safety) year over year. Hopefully Tesla can fix the most recent most common issues (auto rain wipers, auto-parking, phantom braking, etc) quickly as the FSD matures, luckily it seems as though iterations of releases are becoming more frequent and released to more people.

 

[UncaNed]

I suspect the people who thought of (or at least approved) removing the sensors ARE the same folks bragging about the lap times though.

I agree this is an own-goal thing--- and one Tesla already went through, more than once, and should have known better.

When they removed rain sensors- which have worked flawlessly for many many years in not just other brands, but Teslas as well, WITHOUT having validated at-least-as-good software to replace them, that was a mistake. Initially there was just 0 auto functionality at all- then it was complete garbage when they finally rolled SW out. Only now, years later, is the software for that feature ok... and JUST ok, still not as good, as we've seen from many recent posts, as the original physical sensor was.

Rather than learn from this and put off any further removing of HW until they knew the SW was good, they removed radar... making even basic AP less functional (lower top speed, longer minimum follow distance)... and now, once again, years later, it's still not back to parity with the original HW-based solution just like the wipers aren't.

Then rather than learn from EITHER of those and put off any further removing of HW until they knew the SW was good, they removed the ultrasonics.... which entirely removed many of the features of EAP/FSD from newer cars for a while (no autopark, no summon, no enhanced summon)-- and now a few months shy of a year later, software has brought back some of this, but it's demonstrably worse than the HW based solution-- and given the existing cameras have known blind spots the USS covered, that's also not going to get back to parity.


The best part is no part when the lack of the part does not make the car worse


The fact YOU (generic you) doesn't care about losing all these things lower-end cars did fine with HW doesn't change the fact many prospective buyers WILL care... and we're no longer in the days of 6 month waiting lists for deliveries- scaling to even 2 million cars a year requires at least SOME consideration of what the "normal" buyer wants and expects.... and certainly scaling to -20- million requires a lot of consideration of that.

Perhaps we should all register our disappointments on Twitter

https://twitter.com/x/status/1654588331244793856

...or perhaps Tweeting Elon.

 

[Krugerrand]

I hold not tens of millions, not hundreds of millions, but billions of dollars of TSLA. I sit on the board of Tesla Inc.
It is my responsibility to ensure my company makes THE safest, most compelling automobile the world ever has or will see.

To attain that goal, my view is that the company ought take, rather than dismiss, the good features also present in other makers’ products. That the company ought - as @unk45 has cogently written - consider replacing the Old with the New after and only after the latter has rigorously been demonstrated always to be superior.


And THAT is how I view my position with Tesla and TSLA. It is thus not solely because of my years as a portfolio manager entrusted to manage thousands of others peoples’ savings, but because now, in my so-called retirement, I do exactly the same but for only a very select number of family and friends. For me, there is no difference in those two charges.

Subsequent to my prior post, another has posted “FWIW…I never have experienced phantom braking…”. The ”IW” in that FWIW is exactly zero. It has happened to others. It never should occur. “My wipers work fine”. Again, worthless, or possibly less than zero, as along with tires and brakes, a well-functioning set of wipers is axiomatically fundamental to a safe automobile.

”You don’t like that a Tesla hasn’t such-and-such a feature? Fine: then buy another car.” I do not wish to read one more such line in a thread devoted to investments in TSLA. Not Ever Again. Zero exception.

If a person feels they have the above responsibility then don’t be posting complaints on TMC. Go DO something about it at that higher level. Plead your case to the people at the top and convince them they’re wrong.

People who complain do so for just a few reasons. In no particular order;

They’re ugly inside
They’re afraid/fearful
They feel helpless/lack the ability to control

Giving everyone here the benefit of the doubt, I’ll go with the last. In which case, accept you don’t have control and then make a different choice such as moving on. You’ll be happier for taking back your life.

If demand for Teslas actually fell off the cliff because all those average Joes made a different EV choice, Tesla would put back/fix the remedial options and be content with being just another OEM.

I actually think @unk45 has it right and Tesla is pushing for driverless cars at the expense of some of the little things. Driverless cars are a significant part of the mission - Tesla has told us so. We also know that Tesla feels purchase price is the next barrier to sales growth. To get to the price, some things clearly have to go/aren’t important in Tesla’s view. Doesn’t actually matter if we agree with any of this, it’s what Tesla is doing. Period. End of story.

Make your choices accordingly and be content with them. Going around in circles ignoring what the company has explicitly told us is dumb at best.

If you think you’re important enough to change the course and path of the company, get off this forum and show us all how big your hands are. If you’re able to significantly change the end goal of the company, I’ll be the first to take my money off the table.

 

[InDaClub]

Yup well said. Also its just an incredible own-goal by Tesla in terms of branding. Regardless of how I personally feel as a customer, I despair at Tesla handing such an obvious gift to competitors. My neighbour recently bought an MG EV costing about half what my model Y cost. He cares not a bit about 0-60 times, or playing games and streaming netflix in his car. His *cheap* EV has a rain sensor, parking sensors and a birds eye view.

I'd love Tesla to spend less time bragging about nurburing lap-times and more time implementing the basic functionality that people expect to work. Anybody trying to use Tesla Vision to park in a tight space will tell you that its embarrasingly bad.
Tesla have to sell cars to the average Joe now, not just to people who take a lambo to the track.

So you are telling us that your neighbour bought a cheap, ugly, slow, MG EV with dreadful range and infotainment system, and you are comparing it to a Tesla. Got it.

For the record, I've been able to park my FSD-enabled Tesla(s) for many years now, without the need for Auto Park.

 

[insaneoctane]

I'm not sure taking the "if it doesn't have the <parking aides> you want, buy another car" is the right position to take. I'll give a very specific example. I own a TM3 and love it. When it came time to replace my wife's SUV, earlier this year, TMY was in the running. She's disappointed in the lack of parking aides (birdseye view and ultrasonics), but I knew about the other value of a Tesla (including what was unique access to the Supercharger network, efficiency, safety and OTA updates). If she didn't have me pulling for Tesla because of my experiences, she likely would have handed her money to another OEM and probably ICEV. Now that we have cars with and without USS, I can honestly say that the Tesla vision replacement for ultrasonics is terrible, takes too long to "load"(WTF?) and is regularly very, very inaccurate. It doesn't need to be like this. Tesla should not exclude themselves from consideration to save a few bucks.

 

[unk45]

To all those lamenting 360/Birdseyeview - this was patented by Nissan if memory serves me. And it is still an active patent.

Tesla's cameras and software could aggregate and produce 360 with no problems, but turning that on across the fleet would be a big fat check to Nissan for royalties. I highly suspect this is why Tesla has not done this, but like with LFP, the instant that patent expires we might see a software upgrade that enables it.

I disagreed only because numerous automakers have solved that display problem without infringing on Nissan patents. The excellent 360 views can be done otherwise, according to information I believe to be true regarding one OEM that has several brands with 360 display technology. I have not personally seen that proof.

 

[Krugerrand]

It is possible to love something and yet advocate for improvement.

I agree. What’s happening here is not advocating for improvement.

 

[Electroman]

I don't use autopilot much

I pity you.

"I bought an iPhone but I use it to only make phone calls. because I heard there are bad people on the Internet"

 

[unk45]

So you are telling us that your neighbour bought a cheap, ugly, slow, MG EV with dreadful range and infotainment system, and you are comparing it to a Tesla. Got it.

For the record, I've been able to park my FSD-enabled Tesla(s) for many years now, without the need for Auto Park.

View attachment 948188

To be fair that post was pointing out that driver convenience features were present and working. If you've not experienced that MG4 you might not understand why so many people buy it and like it. Nobody actually equates the MG4 with Tesla Model 3.

 

[ZeApelido]

Tesla IS selling cars to the average Joe

I am above average

 

[bkp_duke]

I disagreed only because numerous automakers have solved that display problem without infringing on Nissan patents. The excellent 360 views can be done otherwise, according to information I believe to be true regarding one OEM that has several brands with 360 display technology. I have not personally seen that proof.

I believe that the Tier 1 providing that system to that OEM is still paying a royalty, but probably negotiated lower than others due to the pending expiration of the patent.

 

[bkp_duke]

I am above average

We know Elon, we know.

Where's my Plaid Highland 3?

 

[Skryll]

I pity you.

"I bought an iPhone but I use it to only make phone calls. because I heard there are bad people on the Internet"

Interestingly 'unchecked surveillance capitalism' would be a stronger argument than 'bad people'. Interesting paper https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/26317877221129290

 

[InDaClub]

To be fair that post was pointing out that driver convenience features were present and working. If you've nt experiences that MG4 you might not understand why so many people buy it and like it. Nobody actually equates the MG4 with Tesla Model 3.

To be fair, "He cares not a bit about 0-60 times, or playing games and streaming netflix in his car" are wonderful Tesla features.