Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

[navguy12]

Workers always have a say. They can leave the company. They can sue the company for really bad working conditions (like harassment). Good companies are very aware of this and try their best within what is possible to keep good workers.

One observation whenever the ability to sue is one of the tools being offered to put in the toolbox:

I had to deal with the justice system (in Canada) once, and based on that bankrupting experience I will do anything to avoid a repeat of exposure to that system.

And I understand I’m only a single data point.

 

[insaneoctane]

It's all feel... and you can 'stall' it...
Toyota Patented an EV Manual Transmission That Stalls, so It Feels Real

That's hilarious. According to Toyota's graph, manual mode is fully enveloped by EV mode and will always result in a slower vehicle. You can't make this stuff up!

 

[y_naught]

What is TR on the y axis, please?

Total Range (in km) I think. Looks like about 10% degradation after about 100k.

 

[unk45]

Companies need to obey the state laws, and nothing beyond that. State laws guarantee minimum wage, vacation days, maternitiy leave procedures, health benefits etc. Companies are formed from private funds, at a great risk from the founder(s) of the company. And they should be able to run the company as they believe is the best, as long as they obey the law. And they should reap the benefits if they succeed, and bankrupt if they fail. That is the essence of capitalism. On the other hand, it is very North Korean, communist, to interfere with this, to impose "workers councils" or even state affiliated voting (as is the case in Germany for example in VW) to influence decisions.

Thinking it is normal for "workers councils" to have an important say in running a company is a prime reason EU hardly has any new company - virtually all the big ones are from before WWII.

Ah, the subject has been tesla Sweden. AKAIK no US State laws apply in this situation.
It is clear that prevailing societal views in Sweden differ materially from prevailing societal views in the USA.
Were we willing to diverge from the direct topic we might discuss the history of, say, Sparkassen there, a union of savers and borrowers...or even the USA parallel, Mutual Savings Banks. Then we might also think about the origins of labor unions there vs the in USA. Such discussions might help people understand why the role of labor unions differs markedly from country to country.

Most US perspectives differ very markedly from most Northern European ones. The illusion that worker participation in management decisions is necessarily stifling is popular in some circles. Still, the largest EU companies do tend to be the older ones. There are also small and medium sized ones and some huge ones that are newer.

I do not have personal strong feelings that I want to oppose. I worked in enough countries and lived in enough to know that 'one size does not fit all'. All unions are not necessarily adversarial. Even so cultural and business norms domdiffer. Some places, such as Brandenburg welcomed challenge to the status quo, understandable when one considers the history of that State.

However any of us regard these issues Tesla's role as an outsider and innovator is inevitably challenging norms at a rapid rate. That is probably a valuable topic to consider; how long can Tesla persist in defying norms nearly everywhere? Should that practice change?

The present Swedish case is a good example to consider, and might be most productive with an objective examination, eschewing our personal biases and/or experience in examining evidence.

 

[Artful Dodger]

Cybertruck charges at 1MW, no?

Lol, not unless it has a 333 KWh pack that supports a 3C charge rate. A 200 KWh pack at 3C maybe, but that's only 600 KW charge speed.

The 'charger vs vehicle' issue is like Oktoberfest, it's all about how fast you can pour vs how fast you can swallow.

 

[Skryll]

Lol, not unless it has a 333 KWh pack that supports a 3C charge rate.

Semi truck with its much larger battery may be a different story

 

[Artful Dodger]

Semi truck may be a different story

Exactly. Pespsico's current 750KW chargers servicing a ~900 KWh pack is only a ~0.8C charge rate. Much easier to swallow...

 

[Drumheller]

 

[2daMoon]

The way I see it:

Should various Corporate HQ's get to decide everything? Or should the actual workers also get to have a say? How does one worker get to have a say? The only way that happens is through organizing with other workers. And in Democracies that is allowed – as opposed to non-democracies like North Korea and the such.

All I can speak for is this worker, me, and back in the day when I worked I most definitely had a say.

If I didn't like working any particular job because of safety concerns, pay, or any other aspect I would find someplace else to work that I did like.

Throughout my life I did this many times and never once considered it any kind of hardship. It is a right and a choice to vote against a company with your feet.

My motto has always been, "I was looking for a job when I came here" and I could always do it again elsewhere.

 

[Joe F]

Finally caught up on today’s posts.

All I can say is, if I ever find myself in an Ikea, I swear I will never eat one of those little meatballs after today.

 

[Buckminster]

I joked that a thread was needed 24 hours ago. Apparently I was not joking.
Tesla Unionization
I even spelt unionisation (or "facklig organisation" in Swedish) wrong for y'all.

RIP Matthew Perry - Chandler was my fave.

 

[GhostSkater]

Semi truck with its much larger battery may be a different story

Semi with it's ~900 kWh pack and we knowing it uses 2170 cells (for now) from Nevada could take easily 2.7 MW, in fact it needs to be able to take close to that for the 70% charge in 30 minutes Tesla advertise

 

[wtlloyd]

It's all feel... and you can 'stall' it...
Toyota Patented an EV Manual Transmission That Stalls, so It Feels Real

If it came with a plastic life-sized horses head in front, I'd consider it.

 

[andrewt3000]

Quick question... Am I correct in assuming that Elon Musk is literally not getting paid to be the CEO of Tesla?
His salary is $1/year and his performance base compensation packages from 2012 and 2018 have been met afaik. And that pay is under threat from a shareholder lawsuit. (Tornetta vs. Musk) It seems like he is running the company conservatively until this lawsuit is resolved and he gets another big incentive package. That is my intuition... does that seem accurate?

 

[Bet TSLA]

Well, sorry to have troubled you with my attempt to apply logic and reason in order to better understand the situation

Logic and reason applied to a fundamental absence of any understanding just leads to more lack of understanding. Please stop. And that goes for the entire cohort of ignorati here. Y'all ever hear the phrase "first stop digging"?

 

[Krugerrand]

The union has been talking to Tesla since they set up shop in Sweden. So at least 10 years, if not 15... But Tesla hasn't even come to the table(!)... So what would have been a reasonable amount of time here? 20 years? 25? 30?

There is your original post just for you…

Like you didn't get the gist of it(!)...

Ok then...

Here it is again then just for you...

It seems it's not 15 or 10 years. It seems to 'only' be six years. The union has been wanting to talk to Tesla about this for six(?) years. Tesla has basically just said no. And now here we are.

And now here we are.

I had the gist all along.

 

[Krugerrand]

However any of us regard these issues Tesla's role as an outsider and innovator is inevitably challenging norms at a rapid rate. That is probably a valuable topic to consider; how long can Tesla persist in defying norms nearly everywhere? Should that practice change?

The present Swedish case is a good example to consider, and might be most productive with an objective examination, eschewing our personal biases and/or experience in examining evidence.

Those are good questions. The answers depend on a person’s mind tendency, which means no eschewing is going to happen.

‘If it ain’t broke, don’t try and fix it’
versus
‘Tesla should advertise/have unions/have dealerships/fill in the blank) because that’s how it’s always been done’

I’m of the mind, and this won’t be surprising, Tesla should keep on doing it their own way and steamrolling everything and everyone in their path until they’ve saved us from ourselves or we’re all dead because they couldn’t do enough, fast enough.

But I’m open to reading your answers without any personal biases.

 

[aubreymcfato]

Workers always have a say. They can leave the company. They can sue the company for really bad working conditions (like harassment). Good companies are very aware of this and try their best within what is possible to keep good workers.

I'm a bit flabbergasted when I hear this argument.
1. Things don't happen in a vacuum, but people have families, have different financial situations, the can provide for sick people, etc. Also, the legal system may be more or less efficient or expensive.
2. The "fight" is asymettrical. Companies have better lawyers than workers. Collective action is a tool invented hundreds years to protect the little guy. Sure, it can be misused, but companies misuse their power all the time too.
2. "leave the company" is an extreme measure. It's an option for very bad working conditions, but if the conditions are mildly bad you actually want a negotiation, not dropping the bomb. It's like people who advice for "divorce" for every problem in a marriage: as divorce in itself it's not an extreme measure (with kids, with alimony, with splitting funds and property, etc...).

 

[Krugerrand]

Quick question... Am I correct in assuming that Elon Musk is literally not getting paid to be the CEO of Tesla?
His salary is $1/year and his performance base compensation packages from 2012 and 2018 have been met afaik. And that pay is under threat from a shareholder lawsuit. (Tornetta vs. Musk) It seems like he is running the company conservatively until this lawsuit is resolved and he gets another big incentive package. That is my intuition... does that seem accurate?

Close enough.

For instance, the state of CA has a minimum yearly salary - I don’t recall exactly what it was, $13,000? $32,000? but Elon said he never cashed the checks. Is he now an employee in the state of TX instead? What are the rules of that state? Regardless, his Tesla stock compensation packages are indeed how he gets paid for his Tesla CEO position.

I’m not familiar with that lawsuit; too many now to bother keeping track. But I think Elon is running Tesla more conservatively currently then he ever has in the past. I’m not convinced it’s because of some lawsuit, but rather because of the economic uncertainty, which he has stated many times makes him uncomfortable/nervous/pick your favorite PTSD word.

 

[Artful Dodger]

Quick question... Am I correct in assuming that Elon Musk is literally not getting paid to be the CEO of Tesla?
His salary is $1/year and his performance base compensation packages from 2012 and 2018 have been met afaik. And that pay is under threat from a shareholder lawsuit. (Tornetta vs. Musk) It seems like he is running the company conservatively until this lawsuit is resolved and he gets another big incentive package. That is my intuition... does that seem accurate?

Musk has more skin in this game than any CEO who is working for a salary. Elon own's approx. 20% of TSLA stock which is well over $100B at the moment. The idea that he is somehow holding back due to some fantasy law suit is laughable, in fact sounds like an idea implanted by a TSLAQy (ironically on twitter).

The economic challenges facing Tesla, the industry, and the country are real and are not some fantasy bouncing around some TSLAQ basement suite. Elon will guide the company thru these challenges as he has always done, with a long view and by keeping his eye on the big prize. In case you don't know, that's autonomy (both in FSD and Robotics) and the larger goal being the first to achieve AGI.

There's $2B investment going into Dojo compute in each of the next 2 years. That's not 'holding back'. Elon doesn't play it safe, he's a risk-taker by nature. But that also means assessing risk, and mitigating it as appropriate.