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China still has no recognizable brands in US - and thats a problem for selling cars. It doesn't matter if 90% of everything we buy is made in China - if they are branded as Apple or Sony or Panasonic or Lenovo ...
True - they are working on it. In Europa smart ( Former Mercedes pwned) and Volvo brands are owned by geely now doing local European design of the geely platforms ( sold as link, zeekr etc ...) in Europe, I'd say with success, especially Volvo has prestige over here.

So smart #1 == Volvo ex30 == zeekr 01 etc ... all same platform car but designed for specific brands and the European small suv market

Isn't Volvo a good name for us a a well?
 
From 2022 to 2023 total deliveries went up just under 500k and did so almost entirely on the back of large price cuts and increased tax incentives such that the total # of people who can afford a Tesla increased by about that much.
I think there is still a very significant chunk of the population that are still totally clueless about Tesla's quality and prices. Many of those 500K new buyers last year were probably already Tesla fans just waiting on prices to drop and incentives.

Anecdotal only, but I continue to be surprised when talking to friends and colleagues in SoCal that still think Tesla's cost $100K and will catch fire in their garages.

In other words, I believe there is a large population of people who can afford Teslas today that are not driven by price or incentives, they are just unaware of the product.
 
The napkin says 2.5m deliveries in 2024
In my decades of experience working on forecasts, you would be amazed on how often I found high level napkin calculations beating the bottom up detailed forecasts. The reason (I believe) is that detailed forecasts leave much opportunity for biases to slip in.
2.5m deliveries may not be correct, but it allows us to see the possibility.

Here is the napkin math:
View attachment 1005093

Supporting Details:
S&P global mobility estimates 38% EV growth in 2024 (13.3m 2024 units vs 9.6m 2023 units)
View attachment 1005096

Tesla through Q3 grew market share by 8% (1.6 percentage points) to 20.1% 2023 from 18.5% 2022).
Assume market share growth is reduced to 2% due to BYD strength in China.
With the Great OEM EV Pause, 2% may be conservative.
View attachment 1005095
BTW - My guess is that Tesla guides with a range of 2.2m to 2.3m.
 
The napkin says 2.5m deliveries in 2024
In my decades of experience working on forecasts, you would be amazed on how often I found high level napkin calculations beating the bottom up detailed forecasts. The reason (I believe) is that detailed forecasts leave much opportunity for biases to slip in.
2.5m deliveries may not be correct, but it allows us to see the possibility.

Here is the napkin math:
View attachment 1005093

Supporting Details:
S&P global mobility estimates 38% EV growth in 2024 (13.3m 2024 units vs 9.6m 2023 units)
View attachment 1005096

Tesla through Q3 grew market share by 8% (1.6 percentage points) to 20.1% 2023 from 18.5% 2022).
Assume market share growth is reduced to 2% due to BYD strength in China.
With the Great OEM EV Pause, 2% may be conservative.
View attachment 1005095

I don't see how they can build another 680K vehicles this year between Fremont, Berlin, and Austin. I think Shanghai is topped out.
 
I don't see how they can build another 680K vehicles this year between Fremont, Berlin, and Austin. I think Shanghai is topped out.


Austin and Berlin especially are both significantly under what their run-many-shifts-hard-all-week rate could be-- but the issue is if they're running that far below capacity even when the 2023 incentives existed, where would the buyers come from if they ramped up production a ton.

Also where would the cells come from? 4680s are all going to CT ramp far as anyone can tell... and if they had extra Nevada 2170s they'd be able to keep the tax credits on the LR AWD 3 and they aren't.
 
Elon himself told us demand is near infinite but affordability is not.

From 2022 to 2023 total deliveries went up just under 500k and did so almost entirely on the back of large price cuts and increased tax incentives such that the total # of people who can afford a Tesla increased by about that much.

Without those incentives on many models (and in more than just the US- they went away in some other places too)- and without further significant price cuts, I don't see where you get ANOTHER 700k buyers for the same vehicles THIS year with prices HIGHER for many trims/models thanks to the incentives going away... (or say 600-650k depending how fast you think CT ramps this year).

If such buyers in such numbers existed there'd be a much larger backlog, and we'd be back to near 0 days of inventory.

I'm not going to predict number, but naturally, things are a bit more complicated than just a raised or lowered price dictating the delivery number. There are many economic and other factors that come into play.

Part of the increase in sales isn't just an increase in demand, but an increase in supply. Tesla's 2023 prices are more similar to 2021 prices...but obviously Tesla couldn't deliver 1.8 million cars in 2021 because they couldn't produce that many. Likewise, Tesla couldn't have produced 1.8 million cars in 2022, so they couldn't sell that many then either. In 2023, Tesla could produce that many cars, so they did, and those cars sold. In 2024, Tesla should be able to produce more than 1.8 million cars, and one way or another they will find a way to deliver them -- adjusting prices, adding features, advertising, selling in new markets, promoting the point-of-sale rebate, etc.

You'll note that I included "adjusting prices" and not necessarily lowering them. The price adjusts to where the ever-varying supply and demand curves cross. For example, we know that Tesla delivered more cars in 2022 than they did in 2021, while RAISING prices significantly. A quick google search says that from May 2021 to July 2022, the price of a LR Model Y in the US went UP $15K, and yet sales increased. Similar was true for the Model S, X, and 3 -- big price increases, with increasing sales. During that time, demand outpaced supply enough that Tesla could raise prices AND sell more cars....probably because the industry as a whole was struggling with supply. The other manufacturers (or their dealers) raised prices...but couldn't actually sell more because the supply wasn't there. There were unique market conditions at the time...but who knows what we could see in 2024, especially with other EV makers deciding to scale back their EV production plans.

Additionally, most households aren't looking to buy a new car every year...and most people aren't as in-tune to Tesla's prices as we are. So, while 2023 price drops made a Tesla "possible" for many households in 2023, there were still many who weren't looking to buy a car, or didn't know Tesla's price drops, or still didn't really know much about Tesla. As we go into 2024, there are now 1.8 million new Tesla cars on the roads, with their drivers talking to their friends about their car. We know that just having more Teslas on the road means more word of mouth and more demand. And maybe we'll see more news cycle about the Model Y being the world-wide #1 seller for all of 2023. Suddenly, there will be more people with Tesla on their radar. Maybe a new group will realize that the most popular car in the world, beating out the Camry, Corolla, and F-150, could be an interesting purchase.

Tesla also has options, tied to the IRA and tax credits, that can increase demand and deliveries. The point-of-sale rebate on eligible cars will bring in a new group of potential buyers. For their non-eligible cars, Tesla can push leases or business sales -- I believe they will in fact qualify for the tax credit when leased or sold to rental/fleet/rideshare companies.

And, of course there is always a possibility that overall conditions make things worse...but I'd like to avoid bringing up such possibilities.

2024 is a whole new year, with whole new market conditions...as always, Tesla's deliveries for the year should end up within a few thousand of their production number...and Tesla will do what they can to price accordingly and match supply with demand.
 
That’s a valid point along with learning from past mistakes and developing better overall future factories.

But I will also say, that as a whole I believe the Chinese work harder and dare say may take more pride in their work. That too would help account for better end product.

Whatever one’s personal beliefs on the topic, it’s a fact that culture - inherited or otherwise - plays a role at the end of the day.

Yes, culture plays an important, if not a major role here.

Before Giga Shanghai groundbreaking in 2018, I anticipated and tried to explain why equal or even better quality of China made Teslas is most likely.

TSLA Market Action: 2018 Investor Roundtable
Since at least entering 21st century, products made in Chia are often inferior mostly because buyers are only willing to pay cheaply. Expecting your $39.99 pair of jeans has comparable quality with your $399 or even $179 pair of designer jeans simply doesn't make sense at all.

With everything being equal (equipment, raw material, parts, manufacturing processes, ...) other than workers, I actually expect products made in China at least as good as those made anywehre in the world. Why?

While Chinese culture does not favor creativity, it does favor following set of rules. In the process of manufacturing, the opposite of individualism favors more consistent products. Remember Jack Ma once said that Chinese-manufactured fake products are just as good -- if not better -- than the real deal? There is actually some truth in it. And there are so many factors supporting this thesis far beyond this short post.

As to Tesla, as long as GF3 has the same robots, same or actually better general assembly lines etc. according to Elon, ..., there is no reason why Tesla cars made in China are not as good as made in Fremont, or even better - as stated by Elon that they are actually still improving quality.
 
China still has no recognizable brands in US - and thats a problem for selling cars. It doesn't matter if 90% of everything we buy is made in China - if they are branded as Apple or Sony or Panasonic or Lenovo ...
If we struggle to trust computer components made by Chinese firms due to privacy and data access concerns, why would we ever feel comfortable buying, owning, and using their EVs (computers on wheels)? They know it and have begun a multi-prong approach to infiltrate western markets with quid-pro-quo tactics at the government / industry level and Trojan horse brand approach (think Geely / Volvo / Polestar) at the consumer level.
 
The land of cha bu duo isn't notorious for attention to detail and high standards. Maybe Shanghai has a functional QC department, and maybe they think that they can get away without one in the USA.
China can make quality goods. The problem is that most countries purchasing goods from China have historically asked for as low a price as possible, so it's somewhat ingrained into the Chinese manufacturing culture to use every possible method (including unethical ones) to lower the cost. It takes a lot to overcome this. Tesla and Apple appear to have succeeded.
 
If we struggle to trust computer components made by Chinese firms due to privacy and data access concerns, why would we ever feel comfortable buying, owning, and using their EVs (computers on wheels)? They know it and have begun a multi-prong approach to infiltrate western markets with quid-pro-quo tactics at the government / industry level and Trojan horse brand approach (think Geely / Volvo / Polestar) at the consumer level.
One thing I haven't seen mentioned is sale of Chinese BEV's (and brands) being sold in Canada and to a lesser extent Mexico. While the US is staunchly against many upfront Chinese brands in electronics and I assume cars, what will happen when your Canadian cousin (or even Lodger?) is able to buy a cute little BYD Seagull for ~$16K Canadian dollar and drives down to visit in the states? I think the availability of very inexpensive and quality BEV's will force the US to allow importation of Chinese vehicles. The Gen 3 Tesla better be better than those little cars (and I'm sure it will be) as these little rigs will soon be in North America... IMO.
 
Do you think Tesla didn’t think about that?

If your "tesla thinks of everything ahead of time and their thoughts always pan out" were true the bulk of US model 3 sales wouldn't have lost the $7500 tax credit yesterday, CTs would already be ramped with their original promised range available, and FSD would be L5.

Even companies that think ahead, and do a great job thinking ahead, get things wrong (or have external factors that interfere with how they expected things to turn out in the future).

Tesla thought they'd have a lot more (and better and cheaper) 4680s available to themselves by now, freeing up a lot of 2170s that today are going into Model Ys. But they don't.

So I'm sure they've "thought" about where they'd get a ton more cells-- but they don't actually have a ton more cells... see again Austin and especially Berlin having trimmed back considerably from what their stated max output should be versus their actual output.

You can debate how much of that is demand at current pricing not being infinite and how much is cell supply not being infinite. Either way they'd need to solve for both things to find 700k more buyers in 2024.
 
I don't see how they can build another 680K vehicles this year between Fremont, Berlin, and Austin. I think Shanghai is topped out.
haha - Fate you say?
My back of the napkin calculation is 2.53m deliveries
@Artful Dodger 's back of the napkin calculation is 2.53m production . .

I'm not saying that 2.5m is the right number; Tesla will tell us what it is.
But if S&P mobility is correct that EV's will grow 38%, then Tesla will lose a lot of market share if they only deliver 2.1m in 2024.
With 2.1m deliveries in a market growing 38%, Tesla's market share would drop from 18.5% to 15.5%. Ouch.

Looking ahead, I'll make my prediction for Tesla 2024 Production as follows: 2.53M
  • Fremont: 600K (no GA3 shutdown before Model 2 from Austin)
  • Shanghai 1,100K ('cuz they're at that run rate already)
  • Austin: 475K
    • 100K Cybertrucks (as I discussed back in Nov)
    • 365K Model Y (1 line, 2 shifts, 7 days/wk, 339 prod days)
  • Berlin: 365K
    • 1 Model Y GA line, 2 shifts, 6 day's/wk, 290 prod days)
    • GA line: 42 sec/cycle, 84 cars/hr, 15 hrs/day, 1260 cars/day
  • NB: 50% CAGR from 0.5M/yr in 2020 is 2.53M in 2024 (not news!)