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Goes further in explaining the 2170s batteries. Weird that Panasonic would drop major coin on a battery format Tesla stated it was moving away from.

Where did you see Tesla say that? Others say that, but they aren't Tesla.

Elon said in an interview after Bty Day that Tesla would like to standardize to 2 or 3 sizes of batteries. That likely means 2170 and 4680 cylindrical cells, and LFP pouch cells.

If anything gets dropped, I'd pick the Panasonic 18650s from Japan (but not soon).
 
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There are exchange funds (not ETFs), but you have to get them through an advisor and they only delay the tax payment not avoid it. But it allows for greater diversification sooner. (In essence, you contribute your TSLA to a pool where others contribute their concentrated stock and the you get a slice of a diversified basket)
What is this "diversification" being spoken of?
 
Where has Tesla stated that they are moving away from 2170s? They need more US made 2170s so they can stop importing Chinese made ones. I don't expect Model 3/Y to totally move away from 2170 just like the S&X still use 18650s.

What Tesla has said is that they will buy every cell they can get their hands on that meet their requirements.
Battery Day in 2020 was about 2170?........And the structural battery discussed as the future was also 2170?.........And all the battery production Capex in Austin and Kato was for 2170?........

4680 is the future, just surprised by the investment of more 2170s.

True, 2170 is only a form size. IMO, this way this makes sense if Tesla has decided the 3/Y production around the world will use the 2170s with the latest battery formulation., at least that is what Panasonic's PR is hinting at. In an earlier post, someone stated the MY uses 2170s now, with the 4680s going to CT. 2170s in both vehicles would bring M3/Y worldwide production processes closer together..........and lower costs.
 
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You seem to think that people who perceive Elon as insane get there through some manipulation, rather than by reading his posts and listening to what he says. I'm sure that third parties amplify things, but people who have been following Tesla for a long time know very well that you have to always go to the source. Elon has been going full Henry Ford for a couple of years now, and all you have to do is listen to him to see that.
Take this hit piece from Bloomberg for example comparing Elon to...Rush...wait...did I read that correctly? Completely logical to us all, right?
Transcript: Is Elon Musk the New Rush Limbaugh?
 
4680 is the future, just surprised by the investment of more 2170s.
The Semi seems to have a non-structural battery ... it will probably keep using 2170s, no real advantage from 4680s. Lots of Semis with large packs will be built.

if Model 3 or Model S/X move to a structural battery pack with front/rear castings, they may move to 4680s, that isn't a minor change.

Make a 2170 cell with steel cans, and a structural battery pack should be possible, but the extra weight in the cans adds up for lots of smaller cells.

4680 should ultimately be cheaper, hence ideal for any new Models being developed which will probably using castings and a structural battery pack..

If 2170s allow Model 3 to comply with the IRA that is a win, for now the Cybertruck and Model Y are better destinations for 4680s.

The other consideration is Panasonic can do 2170s faster, ASAP for Model 3 IRA compliance is good.
 
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Starlink coming to India next week. Would be sweet if GigaIndia was also announced next week.

 
Battery Day in 2020 was about 2170?........And the structural battery discussed as the future was also 2170?.........And all the battery production Capex in Austin and Kato was for 2170?........

4680 is the future, just surprised by the investment of more 2170s.

True, 2170 is only a form size. IMO, this way this makes sense if Tesla has decided the 3/Y production around the world will use the 2170s with the latest battery formulation., at least that is what Panasonic's PR is hinting at. In an earlier post, someone stated the MY uses 2170s now, with the 4680s going to CT. 2170s in both vehicles would bring M3/Y worldwide production processes closer together..........and lower costs.
If Tesla builds a cell plant, it will be 4680.
If Tesla builds a vehicle, it will use whatever the supply chain (internal and exteral) can support.
 
Where did you see Tesla say that? Others say that, but they aren't Tesla.

Elon said in an interview after Bty Day that Tesla would like to standardize to 2 or 3 sizes of batteries. That likely means 2170 and 4680 cylindrical cells, and LFP pouch cells.

If anything gets dropped, I'd pick the Panasonic 18650s from Japan (but not soon).

I am not a mech tech person but I thought pouch were out?

Currently, there are three main types of cell form factors - cylindrical, prismatic and pouch - all in various sizes/capacities. Additionally, some are envisioned to be a structural part of the pack (without modules).


Tesla's CEO Elon Musk earlier this month revealed that his company strongly recommends against the use of large pouch cells

From: Tesla Will Never Use Pouch Battery Cells Favored By Many OEMs
 
For years, there's been a certain bear catchphrase that "Tesla doesn't have anything that Toyota doesn't have". Can you name that bare?
Craig Irwin | Roth Capital Partners
Well, we aren't CNBC TV here and he isn't paying us for table service, so let's sample that whine:

Since Toyota idled their Fremont / NUMMI plant and sold it to Tesla: (for pennies on a dollar)
  • Tesla created their own Factory O/S to manage parts / logistics
  • Production updates are done continuously rather than annually
  • Tesla writes 100% of their in-car software and owns all IP / src code
  • Each car produced has a 'Digital Twin' at Tesla (visible at Service Centers)
  • Tesla uses free OTA updates to maintain software installed on each car
Buy comparison, Toyota does have a few things which Tesla will never have:
  • a fixed car design which can not be easily updated, fixed, or improved
  • dependence upon 3rd-party software suppliers from whom they have no IP or src code
  • A legacy Dealer Network which requires an in-person visit to update software
So for 'pink bunnies' everywhere:
  • Under the Toyota production system, the NUMMI Plant was shuttered, and autoworkers were laid off
  • Under Tesla, NUMMI produces the World's Best Selling Car (the Model Y) and workers are thriving
35a9aa483e73b94c8b8605ed9107a381.jpg


Cheers to the Wabbits!
 
I am not a mech tech person but I thought pouch were out?

Yeah whatever CATL supplies in its 3/Y packs, and BYD with the new blade pack (perhaps now shipping in Europe?). The other use of LFP will be for Megapack and Powerwall 3, those will most likely be CATL LFP for some time to come, so not cylindrical is a better discription. ;)

Cheers!
 
Take this hit piece from Bloomberg for example comparing Elon to...Rush...wait...did I read that correctly? Completely logical to us all, right?
Transcript: Is Elon Musk the New Rush Limbaugh?
So what? Nothing I would bother to read. I doubt anybody here would read it except for the purpose of finding out what kind of FUD is being slung now. It's totally irrelevant in forming opinions of Elon other than for credulous fools (none here, right?).
 
So what? Nothing I would bother to read. I doubt anybody here would read it except for the purpose of finding out what kind of FUD is being slung now. It's totally irrelevant in forming opinions of Elon other than for credulous fools (none here, right?).
Agreed.

My reason for pointing it out in response to your original post as one of countless examples: these types of headlines act as ad hominem attacks, and are exactly how the public can be manipulated into characterizing Elon as insane (Rush Limbaugh? C'mon). As it is often said, the media plays the man and not the ball.

The third party amplification of such fallacious comparisons do influence those who do not follow Tesla or Elon to such lengths as we, which is the preponderance of those who have an opinion.
 
I must put a plug in for "Zero to One" -Thiel

It's practically a short story in length. Succinct. Worth considering as a counterargument to diversification strategies.
I actually thought about this a lot.

The number I am aiming for is about one order of magnitude above where I am and I am 4/10th of the way there.

Now I can go through excruciatng pain and spend about 20 years to create a company that can get to that number. Or I can just sit back, put my assets in a 5% interest asset and coast. I'd get to the same place in 20 years.

And this for me, is the argument for diversification cation. Obviously you can't get to that number if you use diversification as you start out. Cause $1 at 5% interest annualy just give you 5 cents.

So I think personally diversification should be taken seriously for two situations. 1, you no long need to try hard. 2. You have no natural talent/advantages when it comes to investing.

Natural talent/advantage in investing for me exist in two forms. 1. You are very good at stock picking to a point where you have a decade of experience beating the index and the pros. This usually shows up as a 20% yoy growth from the talented ppl I've seen. And this is a catch 22. As how can you know you are good without trying in for a decade.

The other one is you are very good at raising money and you can earn a lot from just a one point incrrase from the money you've raised.

In the situation where you have no natural talent in investing and you are just starting out. The reason for diversification is because even if you put 40hr/ week into investing. Yhe return on capital for someone starting out with just 10k, is less than if you just take up a second job and earn minimum wage. It only ever start to make sense when you have 500k to invest, cause now 5% of 500k is a significant amount compared to your wages.

In a way, you can see diversification as going all in in your own domain of expertise. Investing in a stock called "your career. But what I find usually is that ppl often have no talent in both.

How do you determine talent? Simply put, you can do something that a 3 year veteran in the field can do from just 1 months of learning. I've personally seen it happrn several times in the many hobbies I have and each time I'd let the young ppl know they have talent. I am not sure they believe me though.

I personally am a product of focus. But what I tell ppl usually is to diversify and forget about it. Cause this suggestion applies to 95% of ppl and I don't know most ppl enough to know they are partof the 5%. And tgis way also avoid a lot of legal landmines.
 
I think Elon has made a few tactical mistakes which will result in slow growth for the next couple of years, these are:
1. Going all in the 4680 battery production, when the risk was that if you can’t mass produce them quick enough it will add to the battery shortage.
It would have been better to increase capacity of the 2170s until you are certain the 4680s will be produced in sufficient numbers.
2. Not focussing on designing the smaller cheaper vehicle earlier.
Elon was all into the next generation auto vehicle and Franz had to convince him to produce the conventional vehicle by saying that the same design can be used for the robo taxi.
The facts are you have a limit of how many vehicles you can sell which cost a minimum of $40,000.
A smaller vehicle costing $25-30,000 can sell by the millions a year.
So by not focusing on this straight after the Y has been a major mistake.
3. Ramping up the semi earlier. I understand time was needed to put the semi through its paces but it could have gone faster by producing more for different customers to use and then gradually increasing the production, adapting to any problems reported by customers.
4. Not planning to produce other vehicles that sell in significant numbers such as a van.
5. Not doing targeted advertising. Once upon a time word of mouth was enough but now production exceeds supply. Plenty of people have no idea about how good EVs are, targeted advertising will increase sales but Elon has an ideological aversion to it.

As a result the next couple of years will be slow in terms of vehicle growth even allowing for the cybertruck sales.
I don’t expect full autonomy or the Bot to produce any meaningful revenue any time soon.
The only other aspect which is a positive is how quickly they can ramp up battery’s for storage as that is one area where demand exceeds supply.

The main factor impacting on the share price will be the slow growth rate for selling vehicles overall.
Sure other factors will affect it such as interest rates, a potential recession, Elons antics etc but the fundamental problem is I don’t see a big jump in the number of vehicles sold for a few years.

I am a long term holder so I can wait but the last couple of years seem a wasted opportunity in terms of long term planning.
It comes down to the fact that the board is weak. I mean how difficult is it to say to Elon you have a habit of achieving impossible things but they often take many years past your estimates so it makes sense to plan and make vehicles like a “normal” vehicle manufacturer until we are certain we can achieve what we want to do ?
That the best strategy is to systematically produce vehicles in different categories?
 
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I agree. There are more companies out there which have a good chance of 2X or 3X your money in the next year or two. Better than TSLA imho. I think TSLA is a great investment for the 5 - 10 years but shorter term not so much.
Yeah, but good luck picking those... I can't see any of the other M7 going 2 - 3x from here, most of them already at ATH or close, and quite overvalued IMO

I also don't see any strong catalyst for TSLA in 2024, other than Wally Street volatility manipulation to churn the options markets and fleece dumb money as much as they can, but longer term I think Tesla will blossom

For my side, I'm 50% TSLA, 50% cash, I own no property and have zero debt

By TSLA, I mean a mix of: TSLA shares, TSLA long LEAPS, short LEAPS, long calls, short calls, long puts, short puts. It's a diverse portfolio!

Since 2016 I've gone from 100% in $TSLA to 100% in cash, and back again a few times, total life-time investment was around $120k, which was 45x at ATH, thanks to options

Right now I only hold 2000 TSLA, but have a goal to rebuild that back to 10k shares, now feels like a good moment to start doing that, but I'm going gradually DCA into those with profits from weekly option trades, the idea being to keep my current cash reserves and not dive headlong into short term risk

And yes, I would say that when you take into account the cash taken out over the last few years, playing with options roughly doubled what I would have if I'd just held shares
 
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1. Going all in the 4680 battery production, when the risk was that if you can’t mass produce them quick enough it will add to the battery shortage.
It would have been better to increase capacity of the 2170s until you are certain the 4680s will be produced in sufficient numbers.
How was Tesla supposed to convince Panasonic to invest more into 2170 manufacturing and how quickly would Panasonic have been able to implement that?
How would delaying 4680 (via less focus and priority), assuming they were able to ramp a 3rd party 2170 manufacturer, be beneficial over the medium term? Stopgap measures to accelerate timing can become long term hindrances.

2. Not focussing on designing the smaller cheaper vehicle earlier.
Elon was all into the next generation auto vehicle and Franz had to convince him to produce the conventional vehicle by saying that the same design can be used for the robo taxi.
The facts are you have a limit of how many vehicles you can sell which cost a minimum of $40,000.
A smaller vehicle costing $25-30,000 can sell by the millions a year.
So by not focusing on this straight after the Y has been a major mistake.
Which is it? Did they not work on the conventional lower cost vehicle in parallel, or did they?
What new manufacturing processes and technologies were needed to achieve the $25k price point vehicle?
Does it require Tesla made cells at $45/kWh IRA credit, no markup, reduced shipping, and 4680 form factor (structural pack)? What about casting machines? Aluminum or magnesium? 48V or 16V?

See also lack of cells assumption from point #1.

3. Ramping up the semi earlier. I understand time was needed to put the semi through its paces but it could have gone faster by producing more for different customers to use and then gradually increasing the production, adapting to any problems reported by customers.

Dealing with multiple customer doesn't make testing faster. Each one needs charging infrastructure and letting one lead can have business benefits. Tesla had been doing internal testing for long before the initial reveal presentation.

Semi is now using Cybertruck inverters, what other tech needed to be developed and tested to enable a mass production semi?

See also point 1 on lack of cell supply.

4. Not planning to produce other vehicles that sell in significant numbers such as a van.

Based on some 3rd party firm estimates, Tesla is working on other vehicles. Roadster and Cybertruck were leak free until reveal.
If #1 holds, more models would not increase sales anyway.

5. Not doing targeted advertising. Once upon a time word of mouth was enough but now production exceeds supply. Plenty of people have no idea about how good EVs are, targeted advertising will increase sales but Elon has an ideological aversion to it.
If production exceeds demand while sales have also increased sequentially, then they are not short on cell production (at this price point).

As a result the next couple of years will be slow in terms of vehicle growth even allowing for the cybertruck sales.

True, ramps take time, but there is a lot which should be running in year 1 which means near volume in year 2:
Cybertruck with be two shifts soon
Semi is getting a factory
$25k line is being installed at Austin
Cathode plant is almost fully dried in
First four 4680 lines are in commissioning with four more coming this year
Lithium refinery construction is in process

The only other aspect which is a positive is how quickly they can ramp up battery’s for storage as that is one area where demand exceeds supply.
How are they ramping cells for energy, but unable to to for vehicles? $25k car could also use LFP.

The main factor impacting on the share price will be the slow growth rate for selling vehicles overall.
Limited by production ramp(s), or are you referring to total global vehicle sales which is inconsequential when the pure EV portion is a small fraction of the total?