Tesla Unionization

[SO16]

No. I'm not going to explain something obvious.

Because it is the same and you simply cannot.

 

[2daMoon]

Please explain.

Are you joking?

@SwedishUnionAdvocate is too smart to have their propaganda dismantled so easily.

They prefer to let it rot on the vine.

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

These awards might be changed if facts were provided illuminating the difference between their interpretation of what you write and the clever obfuscation which further information might reveal.

It looks like someone who is taking great and precise care in how they avoid saying anything at all, planting the scantest of seed from which to reap easy misunderstanding as the crop.

Your contributions appear to be carefully constructed by a charlatan of the first order.

charlatan /shär′lə-tən/

noun​

1. A person who makes elaborate, fraudulent, and often voluble claims to skill or knowledge; a quack or fraud.
2. One who prates much in his own favor, and makes unwarrantable pretensions; a quack; an impostor; an empiric; a mountebank.
   Similar: quack impostor empiric mountebank
3. A malicious trickster; a fake person, especially one who deceives for personal profit.

And yet another little OT essay... Do you think I care about what you think?

I couldn't possibly care less.

 

[UkNorthampton]

These awards might be changed if facts were provided illuminating the difference between their interpretation of what you write and the clever obfuscation which further information might reveal.

It looks like someone who is taking great and precise care in how they avoid saying anything at all, planting the scantest of seed from which to reap easy misunderstanding as the crop.

Your contributions appear to be carefully constructed by a charlatan of the first order.

charlatan /shär′lə-tən/

noun​

1. A person who makes elaborate, fraudulent, and often voluble claims to skill or knowledge; a quack or fraud.
2. One who prates much in his own favor, and makes unwarrantable pretensions; a quack; an impostor; an empiric; a mountebank.
   Similar: quack impostor empiric mountebank
3. A malicious trickster; a fake person, especially one who deceives for personal profit.

Getting a a bit Ad-hominin in here, forum rules etc.

 

[2daMoon]

And yet another little OT essay... Do you think I care about what you think?

I couldn't possibly care less.

Oh, you thought I was writing these responses for you?

No, no. You have made it very clear how you have no concern for validating the questionable content you have shared on a public forum.

The very fact that "you couldn't care less" is what naturally led to these responses in order to shine light upon such tactics for anyone reading this thread who may initially be taken in by what appears to be a flavor of propaganda.

Consider these responses a Public Service Announcement for those taking an interest in Tesla Unionization by venturing into this thread.

I'm not opposed to unionization and would welcome discussing the benefits that could be had for both employees and employers, were union participation a truly symbiotic relationship that is designed to constantly improve all aspects of business operation.

I am opposed to any union being unable to openly discuss actions taken against law abiding non-union employees and employers. Though, it should be clear I'm willing to discuss this, if there is a rational, reasonable explanation for such behavior.

Every indication is that there is no such opportunity forthcoming which includes a two-way conversation.

Thank you for playing.

 

[UkNorthampton]

I like all the inputs from people based in or otherwise having knowledge of Sweden whether they agree with each other or not.

Better to read and take in the different views. It's pretty hard for people in the continent of USA (more of less) to understand the various European cultures, I say this as a near neighbour and every country in Europe is radically different.

UK is much closer in culture to USA and it's still baffling to me. Sweden, Netherlands and others were known for their consensual way of working. Unwritten rules are often more important than written ones. For example minimum wages weren't seen as being legally needed as practically minimum wages were in place.

My country doesn't have a written constitution (England and Wales, others have their own constitutions - Scotland is a separate country as is Northern Ireland. Then we have Gibraltar, various islands - Channel, Manx, Caribbean) and in practical terms the constitutionS can and are changed by courts/deals/Star Chamber/Privy Council/European Court of Human Rights) quite regularly. Reasonableness is a key part of what courts use to decide things. What is reasonable changes over time.

I personally support Tesla employees not being forced into a collective agreement but the communications regarding this tend to be pro Union in the media I consume most.

 

[ggr]

Getting a a bit Ad-hominin in here, forum rules etc.

Mod: agree. Tone down the argumentation please. --ggr

 

[2daMoon]

Mod: agree. Tone down the argumentation please. --ggr

Okay. I understand and appreciate your pointing it out.

 

[navguy12]

What those people did on Jan 6 to the capital and tried to do was absolutely atrocious which will forever be a black eye on democracy.

Absolutely 100% agree.

 

[Zuikkis]

But there are also folks in this thread that give my posts blue thumbs, lightbulbs, informative(s), and hearts...

The plural in "folks" might be over estimated, as nearly all of your likes are from a single person, who has not written a single post on this thread.

Maybe you should chat with him in private, to give this thread rest..

 

[mars_or_bust]

I maintain that Timbro is far-right in a Swedish context in terms of economic policy. IMO they are at the far-right/neoliberal end of the Swedish economic policy spectrum. But we're most likely not going to agree on this one (either)... Others are of course free to form their own (anti-union) opinions...

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

EDIT:
With regards to economic policy Timbro is more right leaning than any party in the Swedish parliament. That IMO qualifies as far-right in a Swedish context with regards to economic policy.

that is not far right. That is just plain capitalism. Your position is communism/far left. If you are happy being a communist, that is of course your choice, but then there is no common ground between your position and economic sense. Which renders any discussion with you an exercise in futility, as this thread has shown.

 

[Tiger]

that is not far right. That is just plain capitalism. Your position is communism/far left. If you are happy being a communist, that is of course your choice, but then there is no common ground between your position and economic sense. Which renders any discussion with you an exercise in futility, as this thread has shown.

Communism is an ideology. Capitalism is reality, even inside communism.

 

[CitizenKane]

Discussion seems to be going a bit out of hand. I wanted to give another Swedish view than @SwedishAdvocate but I would also be the first to admit that his views are fairly representative for a lot of Swedes, especially among the left, and I think it is good that his views are represented here as well, as it gives a better understanding for what is going on. I also think that Tesla could have handled this situation way smarter than they have. Even if they will eventually "win", there is a good chance that they have made a lot of people feeling hostile toward the brand.

(As for the somewhat off topic discussion about what constitutes far right - in the old days, the Swedish left-right scale was very much about taxes and public sector size and power. Today, however, the political discourse is more about nationalism vs globalism / traditional vs alternative / libertarian vs authoritarian, i.e. the so called GAL TAN scale. Far right is most commonly used for authoritarian parties and they are very far from libertarian. In Sweden, the party associated with far right -SD- are political enemies of Timbro and many of their voters are ex social democrats. Predominantly blue collar, low education that may want a strong state but with low or no immigration as their main focus. Without knowing too much about US politics, I would guess a similar group as many of the MAGA voters, without the focus on guns and abortions. )

 

[UkNorthampton]

Discussion seems to be going a bit out of hand. I wanted to give another Swedish view than @SwedishAdvocate but I would also be the first to admit that his views are fairly representative for a lot of Swedes, especially among the left, and I think it is good that his views are represented here as well, as it gives a better understanding for what is going on. I also think that Tesla could have handled this situation way smarter than they have. Even if they will eventually "win", there is a good chance that they have made a lot of people feeling hostile toward the brand.

(As for the somewhat off topic discussion about what constitutes far right - in the old days, the Swedish left-right scale was very much about taxes and public sector size and power. Today, however, the political discourse is more about nationalism vs globalism / traditional vs alternative / libertarian vs authoritarian, i.e. the so called GAL TAN scale. Far right is most commonly used for authoritarian parties and they are very far from libertarian. In Sweden, the party associated with far right -SD- are political enemies of Timbro and many of their voters are ex social democrats. Predominantly blue collar, low education that may want a strong state but with low or no immigration as their main focus. Without knowing too much about US politics, I would guess a similar group as many of the MAGA voters, without the focus on guns and abortions. )

This is why I think listening to all Swedish-knowledge voices is important. I don't have a lot of criticism of Tesla, they're following their normal trajectory and I'm used to and ok with it. Silence might be better than engaging when nit-picking and biased reporting is likely. I'm also ok with people disagreeing as there are pros and cons for each approach. Tesla showing consistency helps in future disagreements.

The union chose a high-profile example badly and I suspect they already regret it. No point trying to get Tesla to budge and they should have known that.

views are fairly representative for a lot of Swedes, especially among the left
better understanding for what is going on

I think every country is afflicted by nonsense tribalism/division/biased reporting which isn't helping a centrist majority lead better lives.

 

[MP3Mike]

I also think that Tesla could have handled this situation way smarter than they have.

What do you think they should have done differently?

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

I maintain that Timbro is far-right in a Swedish context in terms of economic policy. IMO they are at the far-right/neoliberal end of the Swedish economic policy spectrum. But we're most likely not going to agree on this one (either)... Others are of course free to form their own (anti-union) opinions...

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

EDIT:
With regards to economic policy Timbro is more right leaning than any party in the Swedish parliament. That IMO qualifies as far-right in a Swedish context with regards to economic policy.

Your position is communism/far left. [...

Wrong.

My position with regards to economic policy is the one held by the Swedish Social Democratic Party. They got 30,33% of the votes in the national election in 2022. [Edit: And the turnout in that election was 84,2%. So not 66,6% like in the latest US Presidential election...] And Swedish Social Democratic Party was in power for a very clear majority of the time since 1920. They basically built Sweden into what it is today. That said – the liberal-right-conservative side in Swedish politics did manage to effect a lot of changes since ~1991. The Swedish Democrats has started to influence policy since ~2015.

https://www.socialdemokraterna.se/download/18.4a7bf7931811baabeb61a56/1654865838690/English_220608.pdf

Swedish Social Democratic Party - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[CitizenKane]

What do you think they should have done differently?

On the one hand, I think the Swedish system with strong, political, unions is corrupt. On the other hand, Swedish unions have a history of being very pragmatic and quite industry friendly. Obviously, I cannot know exactly how things would have played out but I think with a more humble approach, Tesla could have struck a discrete deal.

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

...] (As for the somewhat off topic discussion about what constitutes far right - in the old days, the Swedish left-right scale was very much about taxes and public sector size and power. Today, however, the political discourse is more about nationalism vs globalism / traditional vs alternative / libertarian vs authoritarian, i.e. the so called GAL TAN scale. Far right is most commonly used for authoritarian parties and they are very far from libertarian. In Sweden, the party associated with far right -SD- are political enemies of Timbro and many of their voters are ex social democrats. Predominantly blue collar, low education that may want a strong state but with low or no immigration as their main focus. Without knowing too much about US politics, I would guess a similar group as many of the MAGA voters, without the focus on guns and abortions. )

So what are you 'claiming' here?

That no-one can no longer asses economic policy on a left-right scale?(!)... Seriously?

I do of course don't know about you, but I at least, and A LOT of other folks are able to use multiple models of assessment at any given time...

It's also interesting that there isn't even an English wiki-page for GAL-TAN...

In Swedish:

GAL–TAN – Wikipedia

sv.wikipedia.org

 

[MP3Mike]

I think with a more humble approach, Tesla could have struck a discrete deal.

You think Tesla could have somehow struck a discreate deal to not have a collective agreement? What would they have to give IF Metall to achieve that? (Since it is probably almost 100% guaranteed that they will not sign one when 90+% of their employees aren't asking for one.)

 

[CitizenKane]

So what are you 'claiming' here?

That no-one can no longer asses economic policy on a left-right scale?(!)... Seriously?

I do of course don't know about you, but I at least, and A LOT of other folks are able to use multiple models of assessment at any given time...

It's also interesting that there isn't even an English wiki-page for GAL-TAN...

In Swedish:

GAL–TAN – Wikipedia

sv.wikipedia.org

I'm claiming that you calling Timbro "far right" is not consistent with how the term far right is used, definitely not today and probably not even in the past.