Tesla Unveils The Model S 60 at $66K..... effects on the Model 3

[Red Sage]

That number always seemed a bit scammy to me. its based on a 20mpg car and the only variables you can change are the price of gas and the miles driven per year. You can't change the assumed MPG. And I don't think it includes how much you will pay for electricity instead of gas (a potentially significant cost in CA).

They should really not even include that number, ugh.

Wait... How is it 'scammy' when it is basically what its direct competitors (the S-Class was #2 in 2015 behind Model S in Large Cars in class) get on combined fuel economy? You can always use the EPA's website. The MPG/MPGe changes automatically -- based upon the number of miles per year, and your chosen mix of city/highway driving -- when you adjust the parameters using the Personalize option. You can also enter your local cost for gasoline, diesel, or electricity. The links I've included assume a Model S 90 versus Mercedes-Benz S550, AUDI A8 L, and BMW 740i, but you can enter whatever vehicle you like.

 

[Red Sage]

Agreed. Anytime I want to mess around with the configurator, the first thing I always do is to set the cost of gas to $0.01/gal and miles/year to 1, which reduces the laughable "gas savings" calculation to $0.

Even the EPA's website says that the Model S 90 saves you $6,750 over five years compared to the Mercedes-Benz S550. That's assuming 15,000 miles per year, 45% highway, 55% city driving, and current fuel prices. At 35,000 miles per year, the advantage expands to $15,750 over five years. Yeah... I'd be laughing -- at every S550 owner I passed on the 405 FWY.

 

[Red Sage]

I still cannot avoid the feeling that this is actually a price increase, if you want to get to the original 70D, which was around $70K including AWD... Now the price is $66k, for 60KWh and RWD. So to get to original configuration it is roughly something like $66k base price + $5k AWD +$9k upgrade to 75KWh battery pack... Is not this now $80k vs. $70k for 70D which only had 5KWh less? I guess the original 70D is no longer offered right? Maybe I am not seing this well, but I see this not as positive as others might...

Look at it this way... For more than a year, people were able to get the Model S 70D for only $5,010 more than the original Model S 60. And, for much of the past year, people have been able to get a Model S 70 for only $10 more than the original Model S 60 (without paying another $1,990 for Supercharger access). The discount period has ended, but at least the entry level amount for a Model S 60 with Supercharging enabled is $5,990 less than in 2013 -- and you get Autopilot hardware too!

 

[N5329K]

Per the EPA, the Prius V is 'Midsize Station Wagon' while the Model S is a 'Large Car'. Actually, I always considered the Prius, ever since its second generation, to be the world's most perfect version of the old Pontiac J-2000 from the 1980s. It does turn out that the Prius V has a larger passenger compartment, at 97 cubic feet, compared to 91 for the Pontiac. They have the same luggage space of 34 cubic feet though. The Model S falls between the two in Passenger space with 94 cubic feet, and falls behind on luggage capacity at 26 cubic feet.

Compare Side-by-Side

I have my own yardstick: a Style 23 Lyon & Healy concert grand harp. With the rear seats folded, the Prius V swallows it up no sweat. With the rear seats folded, the Model S could not, (the harp fit, but with the driver's seat run so far forward an adult would have a hard time operating the car). Head room in the front and the back is much more generous in the Prius V, and the rear seats run fore and aft and recline (this intrigued the guys from the Telsa Store no end). I think of it as a surprisingly large car inside and a surprisingly medium car outside. IOW, really smart space utilization. Love to see some of that in the Model 3.
Robin

 

[aronth5]

Per the EPA, the Prius V is 'Midsize Station Wagon' while the Model S is a 'Large Car'. Actually, I always considered the Prius, ever since its second generation, to be the world's most perfect version of the old Pontiac J-2000 from the 1980s. It does turn out that the Prius V has a larger passenger compartment, at 97 cubic feet, compared to 91 for the Pontiac. They have the same luggage space of 34 cubic feet though. The Model S falls between the two in Passenger space with 94 cubic feet, and falls behind on luggage capacity at 26 cubic feet.
Compare Side-by-Side

Agree. I have a Prius V and moving to the Model 3 is going to be challenging due the good space utilization of the Prius which surprised me when I first purchased the car. My yardstick is my daughter's wheelchair which fits easily behind the 2nd seat lying on its side.

 

[Ulmo]

Tesla unveils new lower-priced Model S electric sedan



Top of the line model 3 less than $66K ... is possible and only 5K for the dual motor option

To my eyes, I put in a minimally configured car for my tastes (just with the air filter) for the Tesla S 60, and the end price came out to about double the price of a Model 3. This is a huge benefit to the current (now lower) lower end of Model S buyers, offering the ability to upgrade a-la-carte many options as future incomes allow, without stopping the initial purchase due to lack of surety of those funds up-front. However, double is double, and given my pot of gold, a Model 3 will fit in that pot a lot easier than that minimally configured Model S 60 (with only air filter) that I priced. Having said that, if my luck improves, I relish the opportunity to get such a Model S, especially since it will be less than 4 months* to catch one once ordered.

* This estimate is due to the factory schedule; they try to do domestics at the end of quarter years, and internationals in the beginning of quarter years, and thus sometimes you will have to wait up to the full quarter year cycle plus manufacturing time plus transport time (which for me is quick since I'm near the factory), thus that's where I get my less than 4 months.

 

[Ulmo]

semi-troubling though.

Are 60's going to have reduced range, simply because they're lugging around the extra weight?

No, because the entire car would not be available on the market at all without this cost efficiency of less different kind of parts and the potential from some S60 buyers of additional income to Tesla for the upgrades.

Also, many others have pointed out, it's not exactly an S60: even though it's software limited, you can charge to more of its "60 capacity" when looking at it from practical battery longevity standpoint.

Another positive that is similar is that during long distance trips, you can (a) charge to full many days earlier potentially giving you more flexibility and (b) supercharge faster than an actual 60 battery (from their original 60). I'm curious what the side-by-side comparison of the original S60 and the new S60 at a supercharger is.

 

[Red Sage]

I have my own yardstick: a Style 23 Lyon & Healy concert grand harp. With the rear seats folded, the Prius V swallows it up no sweat. With the rear seats folded, the Model S could not...

Hmmm... Sounds as if you inserted the harp head first. Have you tried doing so foot first, with only the passenger side seat pushed forward in a Model S?

 

[N5329K]

No. The tuners always have to face up, and maneuvering the instrument in base first would be kind of acrobatic (the harp weighs 87 pounds). You roll it up to the hatch on its dolly, and slowly, slowly tip it in.
But....this is in no way a complaint about the Model S which is, at the end of the day, a sedan, not a pickup truck, not a wagon. That it fit at all and the hatch was closable is impressive. Just didn't quite work. As for the Prius V, it carries the harp with more room to spare than our MB E series station wagon, which is full sized. So you can get a feel for just how well-designed the Toyota's interior layout really is.
Robin

 

[KZKZ]

I haven't read the whole thread so I don't know ... but am I the only one who noticed that $66k is not quite the same as $35k?

LOL, yea, I think I'm with you. The $31K difference is significant.

I think the M3 will have the next generation Auto Pilot available too, an advantage over the current S60.

 

[KZKZ]

Yes, and I pointed out that you can't change the assumed MPG. It's 20. Lots of cars get more than that (or less). So the calculator isn't very useful. And yet the results of it are rolled into the price at the top like that's definitely what you are going to save. (You also can't change the cost paid for electricity built into the clculator - it's .12/Kwh)

Although I like the poster who puts 1's into it so that the gas savings = 0 and they can see the prices without it included That is a great idea.

I agree the calculator should allow for more customization, especially on the cost of electricity. Electricity costs vary widely where I live with aggressive Tiered pricing.

 

[xav-]

I have been split between the model s and the 3 for a month now. I was going to wait until the 3 but have been considering the S since we lost a car 2 months ago.

I agree that the S is still way more expensive. I am now considering a third option which is to wait until the next APv2 update and put some money aside.. Not willing to wait 2 - 3 years for the 3.. But I would consider waiting another 6 months to get a nice model S with refreshed hardware.

Ironically if the 3 was not going to come out I would have bought the S already. But I am so concerned about the resale value dropping like a rock.. I just can't make a decision

 

[Az_Rael]

Wait... How is it 'scammy' when it is basically what its direct competitors (the S-Class was #2 in 2015 behind Model S in Large Cars in class) get on combined fuel economy? You can always use the EPA's website. The MPG/MPGe changes automatically -- based upon the number of miles per year, and your chosen mix of city/highway driving -- when you adjust the parameters using the Personalize option. You can also enter your local cost for gasoline, diesel, or electricity. The links I've included assume a Model S 90 versus Mercedes-Benz S550, AUDI A8 L, and BMW 740i, but you can enter whatever vehicle you like.

I actually don't like that all of the EV manufacturers subtract off the tax credit from the price of the car in their advertising. Folks over in the Volt forums have been misled and very disappointed once they figured out that their payments wouldn't go down once they got the tax credit, or worse, that they weren't eligible for all or any of the credit when they filed their taxes.

I don't argue with their choice of comparison cars - it is a large luxury sedan (It will be interesting to see what they chose to compare the 3 with). I just don't like the fact that the price for the gas savings and the tax credit are all subtracted off the price of the car at the top of the screen making it look like its a direct discount off the price of the car upfront, when it is far from that. Sure its not an actual scam, just misleading to the uninformed.

Sure, sure, folks should perform due diligence before signing contracts and all that, but it still feels a bit underhanded to me. When I pull up the Model S website, the price I see first with everything at the default is $45,700. I have to then scroll down to see that it is actually a $66,000 car, and that $45,700 is the net price I will actually pay for the car over 5 years if I previously owned a gas guzzler and I am eligible for the full tax credit. (and for some reason my IP address got located in Colorado, dunno why that happened, but whatever)

 

[Booga]

I have been split between the model s and the 3 for a month now. I was going to wait until the 3 but have been considering the S since we lost a car 2 months ago.

I agree that the S is still way more expensive. I am now considering a third option which is to wait until the next APv2 update and put some money aside.. Not willing to wait 2 - 3 years for the 3.. But I would consider waiting another 6 months to get a nice model S with refreshed hardware.

Ironically if the 3 was not going to come out I would have bought the S already. But I am so concerned about the resale value dropping like a rock.. I just can't make a decision

I have this hope that they'll announce current model S cars have the wiring for everything APv2 will need and it's just a matter of them installing cheap cameras and updating software... Not sure how realistic that is though, but it would be nice.

 

[Booga]

I actually don't like that all of the EV manufacturers subtract off the tax credit from the price of the car in their advertising. Folks over in the Volt forums have been misled and very disappointed once they figured out that their payments wouldn't go down once they got the tax credit, or worse, that they weren't eligible for all or any of the credit when they filed their taxes.

I don't argue with their choice of comparison cars - it is a large luxury sedan (It will be interesting to see what they chose to compare the 3 with). I just don't like the fact that the price for the gas savings and the tax credit are all subtracted off the price of the car at the top of the screen making it look like its a direct discount off the price of the car upfront, when it is far from that. Sure its not an actual scam, just misleading to the uninformed.

Sure, sure, folks should perform due diligence before signing contracts and all that, but it still feels a bit underhanded to me. When I pull up the Model S website, the price I see first with everything at the default is $45,700. I have to then scroll down to see that it is actually a $66,000 car, and that $45,700 is the net price I will actually pay for the car over 5 years if I previously owned a gas guzzler and I am eligible for the full tax credit.

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It might vary on the person - I actually like that they include those things, because it helps me keep the price in perspective.

 

[Az_Rael]

It might vary on the person - I actually like that they include those things, because it helps me keep the price in perspective.

Fair enough. I guess I am basing my experience off of buying a Volt with the EV credit and all the crazy things various salespeople told me about the credit when I was buying. Luckily I had done my research and knew I was eligible for the full credit, how it worked, etc, but I suspect some folks get hoodwinked. (Actually, I know folks do - they would come post in the forums when they figured it out after buying the car)

Maybe Tesla is better and gives you all the facts about how it works before you buy the car.

 

[xav-]

I have this hope that they'll announce current model S cars have the wiring for everything APv2 will need and it's just a matter of them installing cheap cameras and updating software... Not sure how realistic that is though, but it would be nice.

Well I think it's realistic considering what musk said a couple weeks back "we re gonna do the obvious thing, we ll have an event at the end of the year" etc. but could be wrong hopefully not.

 

[xav-]

Agree. I have a Prius V and moving to the Model 3 is going to be challenging due the good space utilization of the Prius which surprised me when I first purchased the car. My yardstick is my daughter's wheelchair which fits easily behind the 2nd seat lying on its side.

Yeah I was so expecting a hatch back for the 3. That's going to be annoying for those who currently have a hatch back.

That's one factor that makes me prefer the S.. Although I agree a trunk alone is not worth $29,000

 

[ecarfan]

I have this hope that they'll announce current model S cars have the wiring for everything APv2 will need and it's just a matter of them installing cheap cameras and updating software... Not sure how realistic that is though, but it would be nice.

That is completely unrealistic. It is not going to happen.

 

[neroden]

Honestly, I'm pretty sure AP v.2 is gonna turn out to have more problems than they expect and we'll be round again for AP v.3 hardware within a year...