The argument *against* a 2nd gen Model S & X

[HrvatskaEV]

Look, this isn't complicated.

Model S has tail lights from 2012 w/ visible individual LEDs versus LED light pipes for all other models. Model S and X lack basic coat hooks and seat back pockets present in Model 3 at half the price. Model S/X dashboard looks dated compared to Model 3 and lacks the 3's revolutionary (and beautifully implemented) vent setup. Model S headlights received a POOR IIHS rating. Pano roofs no longer available on S. Model S and X both have incredibly wide and poorly designed B-pillar.

The above is just what I could recall off the top of my head. There are a substantial number of improvements that are needed, along with some evolution of the body style. Model S and X sales are in the proverbial toilet and Tesla needs to do something pretty sweet to revive the line.

1. The coat hooks, I agree, should be implemented. I couldn't care less about seat back pockets which just gather Goldfish from kids sitting in the back.
2. Tesla said they want to have the S and X separate as luxury models, and have the 3 and Y as "standard" models. That means having a more luxurious interior. The S and X are also designed to be much more practical while the 3 and Y are minimalist and innovative. I don't consider looking to the right to see your speed practical at all. Sure, the air vents are cool, but they come at a huge cost.

I agree that there need to be improvements. However, those improvements are features, which they are sort of lacking in the S and X right now. The design is not dated, just take a look at the BMW 5-Series. That's dated.

 

[HrvatskaEV]

My guess is that Tesla will continue as they are, bit by bit enhancing the S and X without any major redesigns - until they eventually replace with completely new models, maybe seeing the largely good reception of the Cybertruck, more based on that design.

Obviously the S and X have mainly served their purpose for Tesla and as Elon has said only continue to be made for sentimental reasons. They are no longer key to the company’s mission, or future.

I respectfully disagree! How can you replace a luxury full-size sedan and a luxury SUV with a premium pick-up truck? What they need to do is use the MS and MX to their full potential. Fix some of the fit and finish, throw in trinkets like massaging rear seats, and for God's sake, put in some real leather! Then the two can easily compare with the likes of a BMW 7-Series or X7. Of course, being much, much cooler than the them.

As for the future of Tesla, well, it is after all a luxury manufacturer. Why would you not have full-size vehicles then? Having only a compact sedan and a compact crossover seems like underkill to me. Of course, I love the Model 3 and recognize its purpose - it's a kickass car that is way, WAY better than its rivals such as the BMW 3-Series and Mercedes C-Class. But... lots of people want a great EV that is bigger and more luxurious.

 

[Brando]

Keep the body forever. Just improve the electronics.
I would like a reasonable battery upgrade, mine is dying 10 full miles a year. And will only super charge at 30kw.
I love the car, but my electronics are 8 years old. The upgrades ruin more then help. I keep telling Tesla, you cant jam a new version of MS dos into a 8 yr old computer, just like you cant jam v10 into a 8 yr old MCU. The chip set cant take it.
It might get to the point I part the car out before I spend 20k on new battery.

2012 Tesla - Barn find of the future?? Collector car??
Parts might be worth more than used price??
Donate/give away for tax write off.

New MCU $2,500. Can yours be upgraded with this new MCU ??

Does it still meet your needs?? Then who cares? Great looking around town car. Cheap to operate. Tesla insurance??

Agree with you about the body. Right-On
Competes well with S Class Merc. DS20 was made for 20 years? Even Corvair 10 years. 99/900 Saab ~40 years. Volvo 240s ? Checker decades?? London Back Cab also decades?? Tesla adds model lines for growth - seems fine.

 

[Brando]

Perhaps in 5 to 10 years - Tesla might only make CyberTrucks.
no more paint, no more color options, no more stamping - interesting

 

[Tslacg]

Obviously the question is what is the definition of "2nd generation"? Will the plaid model be a 2nd generation if it has 3 motors and different battery with over 400 mile range and real 250 kw charging? How much does the body have to change to be 2nd generation?

Great question/point. I think we are all used to 2nd and 3rd Gen models, where Tesla only has a history of a single 2nd Gen model that is unreleased (the roadster) everything else is just an update on the 1st Gen.

 

[HrvatskaEV]

Great question/point. I think we are all used to 2nd and 3rd Gen models, where Tesla only has a history of a single 2nd Gen model that is unreleased (the roadster) everything else is just an update on the 1st Gen.

That is true. While some might say that the 2016.5 update WAS a 2nd Gen of the car, the only difference was the exterior. All of the interior bits (next-gen seats, etc, as well as the 90 batteries) were slowly incorporated starting in 2015. The plaid will also just be an update, with some other upgrades.

 

[Chuq]

I broadly agree with the comments here, but one of those "continual revision" things is (for non-North American markets at least) a CCS port, to match the Model 3. The existing tail light cover is is not large enough to cover a CCS port, so at some point this part of the body is going to need some modifications to it's shape, which might be classified as a "refresh" to some.

(They could put it under a separate cover, like they did with the Model S/X in China when they added GB/T connectors, but I expect they would prefer a tidier option. Existing S/X owners in CCS markets can use a CCS adaptor so there isn't really urgency on Tesla's part)

 

[MassPlay]

My guess is that Tesla will continue as they are, bit by bit enhancing the S and X without any major redesigns - until they eventually replace with completely new models, maybe seeing the largely good reception of the Cybertruck, more based on that design.

Obviously the S and X have mainly served their purpose for Tesla and as Elon has said only continue to be made for sentimental reasons. They are no longer key to the company’s mission, or future.

Agreed, S and X are done and will shortly go the way of the original Roadster. Their sales numbers are dropping like a rock now for the S (M3 taking their sales) and X will be completely consumed by the MY. When the 2020 sales numbers come out I doubt that S and X combined will break the low thousands of unit mark, and at that point it just makes sense to cease production to start the 7 year clock on being able to discontinue servicing/parts.

"Plaid" was just a knee jerk reaction to the Taycan, and given the press I think Tesla is now happy enough that no one is cross shopping Tesla and Porsche; they think they can safely ignore it and if there is ever a "Plaid" S or X it will just be a minor tweak like the 'Extra Performance' upgrade they did for the M3 that just unlocked a little more juice from the existing battery. More likely is to see additional upgrades to the M3/MY and position those as the "Porsche/BMW/Audi killers for less than 30% of the price".

Tesla is really moving to the traditional American car/SUV sweet spot in terms of the cost vs quality trade-off. They have good case to make that a few issues, panel gaps, chipped paint, wind noise, etc. are well worth putting up with rather than spend 2.5-3x the money for better quality from the Europeans. Ford/GM have been crushing it in sales with that trade-off for years.

 

[HrvatskaEV]

Agreed, S and X are done and will shortly go the way of the original Roadster. Their sales numbers are dropping like a rock now for the S (M3 taking their sales) and X will be completely consumed by the MY. When the 2020 sales numbers come out I doubt that S and X combined will break the low thousands of unit mark, and at that point it just makes sense to cease production to start the 7 year clock on being able to discontinue servicing/parts.

"Plaid" was just a knee jerk reaction to the Taycan, and given the press I think Tesla is now happy enough that no one is cross shopping Tesla and Porsche; they think they can safely ignore it and if there is ever a "Plaid" S or X it will just be a minor tweak like the 'Extra Performance' upgrade they did for the M3 that just unlocked a little more juice from the existing battery. More likely is to see additional upgrades to the M3/MY and position those as the "Porsche/BMW/Audi killers for less than 30% of the price".

Tesla is really moving to the traditional American car/SUV sweet spot in terms of the cost vs quality trade-off. They have good case to make that a few issues, panel gaps, chipped paint, wind noise, etc. are well worth putting up with rather than spend 2.5-3x the money for better quality from the Europeans. Ford/GM have been crushing it in sales with that trade-off for years.

How would this make sense? Of course the Model 3 sells better than the S! BMW sells over 10,000 3-Series models per month in Europe, while they rarely sell more than 1000 7-Series per month (usually around 500). That doesn't mean that they'll ditch the 7-Series, they'll just ramp up production on the 3-Series and find ways to improve the 7-Series. The MS and MX will be more quiet cars that the M3 and MY, in the sense that they'll sell less models. But that's just the way luxury car manufacturers work, and Tesla is an (innovative) luxury car manufacturer.

Also, the Teslas are not 30% of the price of Audis or Mercedes. M3 starting price: $39,990. Audi A4 starting price: $37,400. MY starting price: $52,990. Audi Q5 starting price: $43,300. MS starting price: $79,990. Mercedes E53 AMG starting price: $73,800. MX starting price: $84,990. Mercedes GLS 580 starting price: $98,800.

 

[msm859]

Agreed, S and X are done and will shortly go the way of the original Roadster. Their sales numbers are dropping like a rock now for the S (M3 taking their sales) and X will be completely consumed by the MY. When the 2020 sales numbers come out I doubt that S and X combined will break the low thousands of unit mark, and at that point it just makes sense to cease production to start the 7 year clock on being able to discontinue servicing/parts.

"Plaid" was just a knee jerk reaction to the Taycan, and given the press I think Tesla is now happy enough that no one is cross shopping Tesla and Porsche; they think they can safely ignore it and if there is ever a "Plaid" S or X it will just be a minor tweak like the 'Extra Performance' upgrade they did for the M3 that just unlocked a little more juice from the existing battery. More likely is to see additional upgrades to the M3/MY and position those as the "Porsche/BMW/Audi killers for less than 30% of the price".

Tesla is really moving to the traditional American car/SUV sweet spot in terms of the cost vs quality trade-off. They have good case to make that a few issues, panel gaps, chipped paint, wind noise, etc. are well worth putting up with rather than spend 2.5-3x the money for better quality from the Europeans. Ford/GM have been crushing it in sales with that trade-off for years.

I hope you are wrong. I have a model X and would not be interested in a 3 or Y. S maybe.

 

[HrvatskaEV]

I hope you are wrong. I have a model X and would not be interested in a 3 or Y. S maybe.

I would never replace my (soon-to-be) S with a 3 or Y. I'd maybe, maybe get a 3 as a city car, in a dream, but that probably won't happen. I was going to get the 6-seater X, but my only parking spot is in a tight garage where the falcon wing doors would get all confused or wouldn't work. That coupled with the 487km estimated range on the Performance model means that it's not practical for me for the time being. Maybe in a few years. But I agree, the S and X have a spot in a certain part of the market, and that part of the market is ideal for my lifestyle. A small difference in comfort or space on a road trip can mean a lot. The differences between an S and 3 or X and Y are quite significant.

 

[FlatSix911]

Agreed, S and X are done and will shortly go the way of the original Roadster. Their sales numbers are dropping like a rock now for the S (M3 taking their sales) and X will be completely consumed by the MY. When the 2020 sales numbers come out I doubt that S and X combined will break the low thousands of unit mark, and at that point it just makes sense to cease production to start the 7 year clock on being able to discontinue servicing/parts.

"Plaid" was just a knee jerk reaction to the Taycan, and given the press, I think Tesla is now happy enough that no one is cross shopping Tesla and Porsche; they think they can safely ignore it and if there is ever a "Plaid" S or X it will just be a minor tweak like the 'Extra Performance' upgrade they did for the M3 that just unlocked a little more juice from the existing battery. More likely is to see additional upgrades to the M3/MY and position those as the "Porsche/BMW/Audi killers for less than 30% of the price".

Tesla is really moving to the traditional American car/SUV sweet spot in terms of the cost vs quality trade-off. They have a good case to make that a few issues, panel gaps, chipped paint, wind noise, etc. are well worth putting up with rather than spend 2.5-3x the money for better quality from the Europeans. Ford/GM have been crushing it in sales with that trade-off for years.

I'm afraid your example is flawed... the original roadster sold in very small volumes and is now being replaced by a brand new model.

Top-shelf models will always be needed to promote the brand.

 

[Dare]

I think the S is a timeless design that looks like nothing else on the road. I never get tired of it, which is a phenomenon that I haven't experienced with other cars I've owned. I just finished the paperwork to complete the purchase of mine (end of lease).

 

[XLR82XS]

I think the S is a timeless design that looks like nothing else on the road. I never get tired of it, which is a phenomenon that I haven't experienced with other cars I've owned. I just finished the paperwork to complete the purchase of mine (end of lease).

Agreed. They hit one out of the park with the S and it will stand the test of time from a design standpoint.

 

[MassPlay]

I'm afraid your example is flawed... the original roadster sold in very small volumes and is now being replaced by a brand new model.

Top-shelf models will always be needed to promote the brand.

That's exactly the example I was illustrating. The original Roadster ceased to be the "top-shelf" model when the S came along, its sales fell off, so it was killed. Now we're seeing the 3 erode sales of the S to the point of non-viability (< 15K in 2019), and the Y will shortly do that to the Model X. Tesla is already positioning the Roadster as the new "top-shelf" car, so the S/X are now just models that lack features, are out-of-date, and sell poorly so no reason to invest in them, just kill them off. Not saying that Tesla 10 years down the road won't feel the need for an S/X to compete with Porsche/Audi/Jaguar as they gain market share in the "premium space" on luxurious interior, device integrated infotainment, etc. however right now the 3/Y are getting that job done based on barriers to entry (charging infrastructure) and price.

 

[MassPlay]

I hope you are wrong. I have a model X and would not be interested in a 3 or Y. S maybe.

I agree, I was really hoping for a nice, more luxurious interior upgrade, CarPlay/Android Auto, faster charging, better thermal battery mgmt, better cold weather performance, etc. for the Model S/X to bring them on par with the upper-end of the traditional manufacturer range and Model Y technology. Sadly I think its going to be a few minor tweaks, and after volumes drop under 10K units/year Tesla will take that assembly line space for higher volume vehicles.

 

[Brando]

side note: Tesla seat versions, about 6 of them, Consider on Gen 3
Front Seat Retrofit | TeslaTap

AutoPilot version 12 of the software? 3rd genaeration of computer now FSD

Tesla Retrofits
Tesla offers a number of documented and undocumented retrofits to add items you did not select or were not available when the car was made. find about ~ 40 items Modifications | TeslaTap

Any talk about generation of Model __ seems point less - continuouis improvement. Only you can decide if newer versions are worth trade in. for the particular feature that interests you. Some seem to need a marketing department to decide for them. That is the traditional model. NOT TESLA.
side note: I forgot how much useful/interesting/informative things you can find at: Links | TeslaTap check out the entire site. For gems like these:
Model S Top Features | TeslaTap
Model X Top Features | TeslaTap
Model 3 Top Features | TeslaTap

 

[FreqFlyer]

side note: Tesla seat versions, about 6 of them, Consider on Gen 3
Front Seat Retrofit | TeslaTap

AutoPilot version 12 of the software? 3rd genaeration of computer now FSD

Tesla Retrofits
Tesla offers a number of documented and undocumented retrofits to add items you did not select or were not available when the car was made. find about ~ 40 items Modifications | TeslaTap

Any talk about generation of Model __ seems point less - continuouis improvement. Only you can decide if newer versions are worth trade in. for the particular feature that interests you. Some seem to need a marketing department to decide for them. That is the traditional model. NOT TESLA.
side note: I forgot how much useful/interesting/informative things you can find at: Links | TeslaTap check out the entire site. For gems like these:
Model S Top Features | TeslaTap
Model X Top Features | TeslaTap
Model 3 Top Features | TeslaTap

Let me define generation for you then, a new body and platform. Problem is Elon is letting it be known the ROI seems not to be there for a new S "generation".

 

[Drkmttr]

I've got a 2017 X P100D and a 2018 S P100D.

I most certainly already feel outdated but will be even more so soon once battery day happens. I believe (pure speculation) that another S is just around the corner with the new battery tech, etc, and its making me really think long and hard about whether I should trade in now for a 3/Y just because their resale value will stay stronger due to the less ageing tech.

 

[Ciaopec]

I would never replace my (soon-to-be) S with a 3 or Y. I'd maybe, maybe get a 3 as a city car, in a dream, but that probably won't happen. I was going to get the 6-seater X, but my only parking spot is in a tight garage where the falcon wing doors would get all confused or wouldn't work. That coupled with the 487km estimated range on the Performance model means that it's not practical for me for the time being. Maybe in a few years. But I agree, the S and X have a spot in a certain part of the market, and that part of the market is ideal for my lifestyle. A small difference in comfort or space on a road trip can mean a lot. The differences between an S and 3 or X and Y are quite significant.

I theoretically, on the other hand, might replace my 2016 MS90D with a MY. Love my MS but the MY has many of the same features I like. Sits a little higher; similar interior space; faster charging; ride is probably similar (no air suspension on the S). I think I would miss the instrument cluster.