The catastrophe of FSD and erosion of trust in Tesla

[James F2]

Nope Not unclear on that. But PUBLIC beta implies it’s at least safe enough for use on public roads. It’s not. No point arguing with idiots though. Believe what you want.

 

[Knightshade]

Nope Not unclear on that. But PUBLIC beta implies it’s at least safe enough for use on public roads. It’s not.

Tens of thousands of people have been testing it that way, for over a year now. 0 deaths. 0 injuries of any kind. 0 accidents with another vehicle or pedestrian. So all actual evidence says it is safe enough for public roads.

No point arguing with idiots though.

Hope springs eternal!

Believe what you want.

I believe facts and evidence across a broad spectrum of available data. All of which, again, shows it's perfectly safe.

Why do you believe in, since it's clearly not those things?

 

[Supcom]

Nope Not unclear on that. But PUBLIC beta implies it’s at least safe enough for use on public roads. It’s not. No point arguing with idiots though. Believe what you want.

Sounds like the Canadian NN training is a bit behind the US. Not surprising since this is the first attempt at Canadian city streets.

I'd be curious to hear some details of your experience and specifically where FSD beta failed in your testing.

 

[drtimhill]

Remember, Elon said the "prime directive" of autopilot is "do not crash". Well. We've seen it crash multiple times into multiple objects, seen it charge toward pedestrians and cyclists, seen it veer into oncoming traffic, and so on. So if the "prime directive" fails that often and that badly, why is it being tested on the unsuspecting public? Why is every single other company using professional drivers to annotate and curate interventions while Tesla is just letting anybody in the US with $12k in their pocket engage a broken system?

There have been a limited number of incidents involving FSD; using phrases like "multiple times" and "charge into" is exactly the kind of distortion people use when they are desperate to push an agenda regardless of the facts or any reasoned discussion. Do you have any actual information on FSD crash data vs miles driven? Or comparisons with human driver statistics? I've seen human drivers "crash multiple times" and "fail that often and that badly" .. should we then stop all humans from driving?

And it's not being tested on the "unsuspecting public", it's being tested by a chosen set of testers who are clearly warned about the capabilities (or lack thereof) to expect. Sure, its being tested on public roads, but Tesla is certainly not letting "just anybody with $12k in their pocket" test stuff. And yes, those testers do annotate and curate interventions, as I do every time I test the beta.

Clearly, nothing I or anyone else say will change your mind or mindset (look up Churchills definition of a "fanatic" sometime), but I think it's important to keep things rational and sensible for others in these forums. FSD clearly needs work and no-one, least of all Tesla, is denying that. But throwing out nothing but wild unsubstantiated claims of the sky falling does nothing to advance the dialog, FSD, or autonomous driving in general. Constructive criticism is valid, useful, and should always be encouraged, destructive attacks seem more a sign of frustrated ego to me (as per the OP).

 

[drtimhill]

One of the fanboys (I think its EV NOW or EVNOW) swears that Tesla isnt benefitting financially from money paid for FSD. Some sort of accounting mumbo jumbo he regurgitated. Alls I know is..Tesla has received MILLIONS of dollars in FSD payments.

Yeah that accounting "mumbo jumbo" .. how dare people use factual stuff like that to disagree with us .. MUST be a fanboy trick!! They will soon try to tell us the world isnt flat .. who do they think they are?

 

[DrDabbles]

And it's not being tested on the "unsuspecting public"

I forgot how people not in a Tesla agreed to Tesla's terms of service.

Sure, its being tested on public roads

You disagreed with yourself in the very next sentence. I mean. This is the gymnastics required. the best part of Tesla adding more beta testers is that more people see through the outright lies. You're fighting a losing battle, dude. And you must realize by now that Elon is planning to call FSD "feature complete" before the end of this year. No self driving with you sleeping, no L5, no L3 even. The instant that happens the lawsuits will flood in.

 

[Knightshade]

I forgot how people not in a Tesla agreed to Tesla's terms of service.

In a tesla or a toyota the human driver is the one responsible for not hitting other people, so same same regardless of who agreed to what.

. And you must realize by now that Elon is planning to call FSD "feature complete" before the end of this year. No self driving with you sleeping, no L5, no L3 even. The instant that happens the lawsuits will flood in.

For the version of FSD sold since March 2019 (ie the version most people who own it at all have) that is feature complete.

Nothing was ever listed on the sales page when you bought it promising more than L2 city streets, which is what you'd get with a wide L2 release of the stuff being tested in the beta.

So nobody in that group (again the vast majority of buyers at this point) has any basis to sue. They got literally what they were told they'd get during the purchase.


The pre 3/19 buyers are still owed an L4 system of course, and Tesla still intends to give them one eventually.... though I don't expect they'll do so on current HW. Tesla has several paths for resolution there without lawsuits coming into it.

 

[Supcom]

I forgot how people not in a Tesla agreed to Tesla's terms of service.

I didn't agree to my neighbor's kid racing his car down the street. Nor did I agree to all the drivers willfully running red lights, tailgating, driving while texting, etc.

 

[Raurele]

In a tesla or a toyota the human driver is the one responsible for not hitting other people, so same same regardless of who agreed to what.






For the version of FSD sold since March 2019 (ie the version most people who own it at all have) that is feature complete.

Nothing was ever listed on the sales page when you bought it promising more than L2 city streets, which is what you'd get with a wide L2 release of the stuff being tested in the beta.

So nobody in that group (again the vast majority of buyers at this point) has any basis to sue. They got literally what they were told they'd get during the purchase.


The pre 3/19 buyers are still owed an L4 system of course, and Tesla still intends to give them one eventually.... though I don't expect they'll do so on current HW. Tesla has several paths for resolution there without lawsuits coming into it.

No one is owed a L4 system, and no one will win a lawsuit arguing that. you're hilarious

 

[drtimhill]

You disagreed with yourself in the very next sentence. I mean. This is the gymnastics required. the best part of Tesla adding more beta testers is that more people see through the outright lies.

Nope, as others noted, its being tested with the beta tester drivers, who are still responsible for the safety of the car wrt the general public. And will continue to be so even after FSD is generally available, since it will be an L2 system.

 

[daktari]

It should be obvious to all that it is not Tesla that save the life of the driver in FSD beta, but the hyper aware drivers.

It is funny that we have seen lot of videos of AP with no driver in the seat or driver sleeping, but not even FSD influencers on twitter have showed videoes of them FSDing with a blindfold.

 

[VanFriscia]

I live in Canada and just got the FSD update this morning. I went for a drive this evening and came back completely and utterly disgusted. Angry really. There is no way this is anywhere near ready for public use. It can’t do the simplest of driving tasks with error. It’s just awful. Dangerous and awful. I wish I could get my money back.

If you think this is bad, you should've seen how it performed on the initial rollout (FSD Beta 10.2, I think?) . Having only Elon's commentary of first-hand experience to go on at the time, I too was shocked at how poorly it did.

But seriously, hang in there friend. If you come into it with the right mindset it can be a fun and enjoyable experience. That mindset is (1), this is NOT yet intended to be a stable or even useful feature (in fact, it's quite the opposite and likely will be for some time yet); and (2), learning its quirks and watching it get better with time is pretty darn cool from a techy/nerd perspective, and it's pretty cool to personally have a hand in testing and advancing said tech. If that's not your cup of tea, then alas, FSD Beta probably isn't for you. Wait for it to be more stable and useful; or, if you're not willing to wait until this unknown date comes, then maybe try and get a refund.

 

[Knightshade]

No one is owed a L4 system

I'm sorry you find facts so funny. Sadly too common these days.

Anyway, pre 3/19 buyers were absolutely promised, in writing, a system that is at least L4 (arguably L5, but I think L4 with a broad ODD is the most you could make a for-sure argument for). They were promised this during the actual sale of the product in the description of what they were purchasing.

Post 3/19 buyers were instead only promised an L2 product during the purchase.

Indeed, limiting liability as to what was owed to whom was the primary reason for the 3/19 wording/product change. If you imagine there was some OTHER reason they changed the description that extensively though I'd love to hear it.

 

[nvx1977]

Nope Not unclear on that. But PUBLIC beta implies it’s at least safe enough for use on public roads. It’s not. No point arguing with idiots though. Believe what you want.

There's a difference between thinking something doesn't perform to your expectations and declaring it unsafe. I've seen this same argument about auto-wipers, the center screen (lack of binnacle/HUD), etc. The data doesn't back it up.

If the driver is paying attention, as they should be, the car is as safe as the driver allows it to be. Now that you know that FSD beta requires a lot more monitoring than your preference, and you don't seem to want to put up with it, you should request to be removed from beta testing.

 

[Supcom]

There's a difference between thinking something doesn't perform to your expectations and declaring it unsafe. I've seen this same argument about auto-wipers, the center screen (lack of binnacle/HUD), etc. The data doesn't back it up.

If the driver is paying attention, as they should be, the car is as safe as the driver allows it to be. Now that you know that FSD beta requires a lot more monitoring than your preference, and you don't seem to want to put up with it, you should request to be removed from beta testing.

Still waiting for James F2 to provide details on his experience. I've seen a few Youtube videos from new Canadian FSD beta testers and what I saw was consistent with my own experience in the US. Not perfect, by any measure, but not horrible either.

It's possible that James F2's expectations were simply too high. It's also possible that he really did have a poor drive with FSD beta. It would be nice if he would give us some details rather than just post a useless, "it sucked" sort of review.

 

[Yelobird]

Still waiting for James F2 to provide details on his experience. I've seen a few Youtube videos from new Canadian FSD beta testers and what I saw was consistent with my own experience in the US. Not perfect, by any measure, but not horrible either.

It's possible that James F2's expectations were simply too high. It's also possible that he really did have a poor drive with FSD beta. It would be nice if he would give us some details rather than just post a useless, "it sucked" sort of review.

It’s also possible there are also trolls in Canada also…

 

[nvx1977]

Still waiting for James F2 to provide details on his experience. I've seen a few Youtube videos from new Canadian FSD beta testers and what I saw was consistent with my own experience in the US. Not perfect, by any measure, but not horrible either.

It's possible that James F2's expectations were simply too high. It's also possible that he really did have a poor drive with FSD beta. It would be nice if he would give us some details rather than just post a useless, "it sucked" sort of review.

I don't feel like I need his video to know what I said was true. The worst behavior I've seen (in videos and in my own experience) is the car suddenly attempting to cross a double yellow into oncoming traffic. If it's happened to me, and if videos of this exist, it's probably a widespread issue and can happen to any tester, any time.

Is it unsafe? Definitely if the driver isn't being alert as they are supposed to be. But in all the "the car tried to kill me" scenarios I've experienced first hand, I had no trouble saying "oh no you don't" in time before I've put myself/passengers/others at risk. The car is as safe as I am.

I've frequented this forum category for a while now, and it's pretty clear that the people who tend to be most upset about FSD beta are the people who just wanted to have it, rather than truly wanting to test it.

 

[Daniel in SD]

I didn't agree to my neighbor's kid racing his car down the street. Nor did I agree to all the drivers willfully running red lights, tailgating, driving while texting, etc.

I’m surprised those things are legal in Texas.

Not saying FSD Beta is unsafe but I always find it funny when people (who seem to be in favor of unregulated testing on public roads) equate It to illegal activities.

 

[Supcom]

I’m surprised those things are legal in Texas.

Not saying FSD Beta is unsafe but I always find it funny when people (who seem to be in favor of unregulated testing on public roads) equate It to illegal activities.

They are not just legal in Texas. They are required.

 

[Raurele]

I'm sorry you find facts so funny. Sadly too common these days.

Anyway, pre 3/19 buyers were absolutely promised, in writing, a system that is at least L4 (arguably L5, but I think L4 with a broad ODD is the most you could make a for-sure argument for). They were promised this during the actual sale of the product in the description of what they were purchasing.

Post 3/19 buyers were instead only promised an L2 product during the purchase.

Indeed, limiting liability as to what was owed to whom was the primary reason for the 3/19 wording/product change. If you imagine there was some OTHER reason they changed the description that extensively though I'd love to hear it.

Show me a bill of sale or contract that includes level 4 in its description, with a date it will be completed by. You’re pulling that out of your ass.