The deal breaker...

[stopcrazypp]

It does seem the adjusted combined rating is closer to what you would expect highway speeds (means at less than highway speeds you can probably beat it, at higher speeds probably not). It's a bit harder to test the limits on the Leaf since the limp mode and range estimation seems to be less predictable than on the Roadster.

I noticed on the chart also that 172 miles for the Roadster corresponds to about 70-75mph.

 

[Norbert]

I'm not expecting anything I'd call a deal breaker. My biggest question marks are actual 65 mph range, which features are options or standard, and how expensive the options will be (specifically transparent roof), and the specifics of fast-charging (standard used, speed for each pack, etc). Somehow I hope Tesla will come up with a not-so-expensive fast-charger supporting the maximum fast-charging speed, and thereby help reduce the costs of building capable fast-charging networks, but that is just a hope at this point.

 

[malcolm]

3-phase support?

According to Grunky, 3-phase is discouraged on the grounds of battery mistreatment:

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/5582-Model-S-Prototype?p=67067&viewfull=1#post67067

- repeated charging from a 440V charging source WILL damage the battery. 220V is strongly recommended for everyday charging.

looking like the occasional long road trip with fast charging is ok. Regular ones only recommended with longer stops for charging.

 

[Norbert]

According to Grunky, 3-phase is discouraged on the grounds of battery mistreatment:

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/5582-Model-S-Prototype?p=67067&viewfull=1#post67067



looking like the occasional long road trip with fast charging is ok. Regular ones only recommended with longer stops for charging.

The amount of degradation depends on the battery chemistry (and apparently on how full you charge). according to Nissan, the Leaf's battery will, even if you fast-charge daily over many years, degrade a specific percentage, not totally damage. Other chemistries (and the Model S will surely be different) maybe less or more.

 

[stopcrazypp]

According to Grunky, 3-phase is discouraged on the grounds of battery mistreatment:

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/5582-Model-S-Prototype?p=67067&viewfull=1#post67067

I suspect he might be concerned about over-voltage, which would damage the battery. But in reality, the onboard charger will convert the voltage to something suitable for the battery, since 440V 3-phase still goes through the onboard charger (unlike DC charging).

The only difference is more power (translates to more charge current or less). This will affect overall life, but is different from permanent damage.

 

[Norbert]

I suspect he might be concerned about over-voltage, which would damage the battery. But in reality, the onboard charger will convert the voltage to something suitable for the battery, since 440V 3-phase still goes through the onboard charger (unlike DC charging).

The only difference is more power (translates to more charge current or less). This will affect overall life, but is different from permanent damage.

I suppose the critical value is the charging speed (in kW).

EDIT: Or rather, the charging speed (kW) in relation to battery size (kWh).

 

[KBF]

The deal breaker for my wife would be not having the jumpseat option - we have 4 kids and it would be nice to be able to take everyone along for the ride. I suppose a deal-breaker for me would be if some other company came out with something with better range and cheaper looked as good, but I don't see anyone else credibly promising over 100 miles with an electric car that would fit my whole family in it!

 

[DaveVa]

Adaptive Cruise Control with Brake Assist and Blind Spot/Lane Change Warning. These driving aids are a really safety features in disguise - I would expect them as options (standard on Signature Series) for a car in this price range.

 

[kgb]

I'd like to modify my answer. Before I said there was no deal breaker, but now I have one. The air-conditioning unit has got to be significantly better than the Roadster's. I cannot do another Houston summer like this! However, if there is no other EV with a working A/C, then I might have to bite the bullet, I will not go back to gas!

 

[neroden]

Deal breaker for me would be if they don't get their act together on the cold weather package. I don't want a repeat of the fiasco where the Roadster had no manufacturer-approved snow tires.

 

[Jaff]

I know we were shut out of the Pirelli snows, but you weren't able to get any Hankooks?

I had my doubts going in about the Hankooks, but was generally very pleased with their performance last winter.

Over sized tires seem to always appear in specialty vehicles...on my 2005 / 2007 / 2010 Hybrids, all had oversized rims (compared with the non-hybrid models of the same vehicles.)...thus, I had only 1 or 2 snow tire options at best...

Deal breaker for me would be if they don't get their act together on the cold weather package. I don't want a repeat of the fiasco where the Roadster had no manufacturer-approved snow tires.

 

[tdelta1000]

I'd like to modify my answer. Before I said there was no deal breaker, but now I have one. The air-conditioning unit has got to be significantly better than the Roadster's. I cannot do another Houston summer like this! However, if there is no other EV with a working A/C, then I might have to bite the bullet, I will not go back to gas!

Sure you may change your answer. kgb, I agree with you on the AC issue because it can get real hot in Houston as well South FLA. Let's hope TM did its homework.

 

[gg_got_a_tesla]

I'd like to modify my answer. Before I said there was no deal breaker, but now I have one. The air-conditioning unit has got to be significantly better than the Roadster's. I cannot do another Houston summer like this! However, if there is no other EV with a working A/C, then I might have to bite the bullet, I will not go back to gas!

I wonder how it feels to drive an EV in the home of Big Oil that is Houston

kgb, can you please outline any other such weaknesses that you've seen with the roadster? Of course, it'd not be comparing apples to apples in terms of the build quality and such between the limited-production-chassis-borrowed-from-Lotus roadster and the mass-production-designed-from-the-ground-up-with-a-real-factory Model S but, just wondering...

 

[kgb]

I wonder how it feels to drive an EV in the home of Big Oil that is Houston

kgb, can you please outline any other such weaknesses that you've seen with the roadster? Of course, it'd not be comparing apples to apples in terms of the build quality and such between the limited-production-chassis-borrowed-from-Lotus roadster and the mass-production-designed-from-the-ground-up-with-a-real-factory Model S but, just wondering...

My biggest complaints are with the parts of the vehicle borrowed from Lotus. The Tesla technology works great and reliably. My complaints are that the trunk is small (but that's what you get with a small 2 seater), it's a pain to get in and out of with the top on (this is due to the lotus based chassis), the wind noise is distracting (this is also a lotus issue), and the A/C is weak (not sure who designed that). On the other hand, when the adjustable suspension is set properly, the car drives like a dream. The engine & battery work reliably. I am never buying another gas car.

 

[TEG]

...the A/C is weak (not sure who designed that)...

From what I can tell, the 2008's had Masterflux and the 2010s+ had Eberspacher.
(Basically an "off the shelf" system designed for auto use.)

Apparently concerns over weak AC in the 2008s led them to a vendor change, but even the "new improved" isn't strong enough for some.
Since A/C and heat sap your range, and a typical customer would probably rather get to their destination and sacrifice some comfort rather than running out of charge too soon, I suspect they went a bit on the "wimpy" side as a compromise.

 

[vfx]

From what I can tell, the 2008's had Masterflux and the 2010s+ had Eberspacher.
(Basically an "off the shelf" system designed for auto use.)...

And I checked. A 1.5 cannot get a 2.0 AC replacement.

 

[cinergi]

From what I can tell, the 2008's had Masterflux and the 2010s+ had Eberspacher.
(Basically an "off the shelf" system designed for auto use.)

Apparently concerns over weak AC in the 2008s led them to a vendor change, but even the "new improved" isn't strong enough for some.
Since A/C and heat sap your range, and a typical customer would probably rather get to their destination and sacrifice some comfort rather than running out of charge too soon, I suspect they went a bit on the "wimpy" side as a compromise.

Tho the a/c draws way less than the heat ... Plenty of room to make it more powerful. For the model s, I worry about how much more air needs to be cooled, however. The insulation and air ingress will need to be much better than the roadster. Active venting while parked would help a lot, too.

I had the a/c divert to battery the first time the other day from spirited driving in the upper 80's(F)... And it really cut out - like shutting it off. Yikes.

 

[kgb]

but even the "new improved" isn't strong enough for some.

I hate to sound like I'm complaining, but in spite of covered parking while at work, when I get in my car, it is often over 100 F (ambient air temp here in Houston is like that). Also, at night, the temperature will drop to a cool 80 F, but the relative humidity shoots up. So A/C is needed in both cases.

I would describe the A/C as the equivalent of turning on a fan with an ice cube in front of it while sitting in a sauna. It helps, so please don't make it sound like I am one of "those" people who would never be satisfied by any A/C unit. I think if the A/C was a little more powerful, I would be satisfied... perhaps 450% more BTU's.

 

[Doug_G]

I hate to sound like I'm complaining, but in spite of covered parking while at work, when I get in my car, it is often over 100 F (ambient air temp here in Houston is like that). Also, at night, the temperature will drop to a cool 80 F, but the relative humidity shoots up. So A/C is needed in both cases.

I would describe the A/C as the equivalent of turning on a fan with an ice cube in front of it while sitting in a sauna. It helps, so please don't make it sound like I am one of "those" people who would never be satisfied by any A/C unit. I think if the A/C was a little more powerful, I would be satisfied... perhaps 450% more BTU's.

Don't feel bad; I live in Canada and have the same complaint. I've had days when my wife has insisted on driving the ICE car because the air conditioning is so anemic.

One tip about the Roadster HVAC system - it doesn't give you full power unless you set the fan to high.

 

[neroden]

Regarding snow tires, I was just talking about the period when Tesla had nothing officially approved, and people in Switzerland (which requires *manufacturer-approved* snow tires in the winter) were panicking. I'll be happy if they just issue a list of approved snow tires which I can order, I'm not that picky.